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h3llfish

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  1. Your answer to my criticism that your parable was too simplistic was to go find another parable that was even more simplistic. If only real life was as simple as your cute little stories!
  2. This professor isn't too good at his job, in my view. He committed the logical fallacy know as the "false dilemma". Essentially, he proposed that there are only two economic systems - total capitalism and total communism. If that were the case, then yes, he did a great job of proving that communism is doomed to failure. But that's sort of a useless thing to prove, considering that very few people advocate total communism these days. By the same token, I can't think of anyone who advocates total Libertarian capitalism, either. That world view would have us live in a country with no military, no police, and no fire fighters. So no one advocates that extreme either. What were're actually talking about is how much of our economy should be governed in a socialist fashion, and how much by private interests. In the USA, we've always tended towards the private enterprise side, and I think most of us still agree that is a good orientation to have. This professor boiled an extremely complex entity down to a childish fairy tale. It works well on the simple minded, but has little relationship to reality.
  3. This is the same argument that Viper already gave, that we should keep singing Christian hymns in public schools, because we always have so far in America. By that logic, we should still have slaves, and women should not get to vote, and we should all pay taxes to the King of England. America changes. Get used to it. It isn't going to stop changing just because you don't care for it. It sounds like your describing what progressives want I bet if it was up to them so many years ago we would still have slavery and women not voting I don't have to get used to not hearing peaceful songs not be played.Funny how we have to hear rappers call woman names and glorify the thug life.in public but when it comes to songs about the king of kings the left deem it bad Hell as I said before the left view of life is backwards You are not making sense here, buddy. Who is having kids sing rap songs in school? If anyone is making kids sing NWA's "F the police", then by golly, I am against that! Kids listen to this crap on there mp3 players and Ipods they hear it outside all the time.One month a year with xmas songs is bad? What a kid chooses to listen to on his personal music player doesn't really effect the other kids much. It's up to parents to see to it that their kids are listening to or not listening to appropriate music. The school is not endorsing anything in your example. No one is being asked to sing (or rap) "Woke up quick, at about noon, just thought that I had to be in Compton soon". Why isn't it enough to sing the religious hymns in church, or at home, or in a private school? Why do they have to be sung in a place where not everyone is Christian? How can that be consistent with our national values such as freedom of religion, to ask a non-Christian kid to sing a Christian song?
  4. I wanted to put those two parts together, because you've summarized my objections very well. To me, the words "Christ the savior is born" are an attempt to convert. Not much of an attempt, and so nothing to get too upset over, but still, in my view, over the line. And as you say, kids are vulnerable. Kids believe just about whatever you tell them, especially when it comes out of teacher's mouth. And the power of song is undeniable... music makes words so much more powerful. So to me, yes, this is an attempt to convert. As far as the exclusion part, well, as I've said a few times in this thread, anyone who is not Christian is excluded. We sang one token Jewish holiday song when I was a kid, but even then, that's exclusionary to me. You're telling the Jewish kid that the REAL faith of the US is Christianity... they get several songs. Your sucko religion gets one. And a Muslim... you get zippo. How is that not exclusionary? And if you're an Atheist, well, you are completely excluded. There are so many other places to practice Christianity... why must it be practiced in a place where not everyone is Christian? So far, the only answer I've gotten from you guys is "because we always have". Not good enough for me. If that option was offered to me, I would be appreciative, but decline. I would not care to have my kid singled out as some kind of weirdo who hates god. I'd be glad that my feelings were being considered, to be sure. But if it was just a couple of songs, I'd tell my kid to go ahead and sing. Heck, if my kid got interested in Christianity and wanted to learn more, he could. I actually did that as a kid. I went to a few services with a friend, and decided it wasn't for me. I'd most definitely make it clear to my kids that they were free to choose any faith they wanted, or no faith at all. If we were talking about more than a few songs, I'd find my kid a new school. Absolutely. You get that, and Devil Bat gets that, and that's what makes you guys the kind of Christians that I like. When that's the attitude, that makes me feel like, hey, these Christians are all right. I should reach out to them, and find some common ground, and work with them to make our country a better place. You make a good point here, about how the political influence is minor. It's not really about that to me. It's about the purity of our ideas and institutions. We keep church and state separate for the good of both, in my view. It's not something that people should get emotional about... it's something to be proud of. It's a big part of what makes our country great - it's part of how we are free and stay free. You get to do your thing, and I get to do my thing, and those ideals of freedom are what we should all share. So to me, protecting your church from secular pressure is really just as important as keeping the school pure. It's all about our freedom. Lol, yeah, I do think you understand my objections, because that example is perfect. It's a comical exaggeration, of course, but it drives home the point that I probably have pretty different ideas about human sexuality than some of my Christian neighbors. To me, school is the place to learn the basic facts - boys have this, girls have that (I forget how that works, I'm saving myself for marriage!). The value judgement, the morality of sex... that should be learned at home, at church, and from each other.
  5. No, it's a scientific theory - you know, the sort of thing that belongs in a school. Silent Night is a religious hymn, the sort of thing that belongs in a church. To many people.....religion is a THEORY as well. One that's been around a whole helluva lot longer than Darwins theory, but since you seem to wnat to pick and choose for yourself what's appropriate and not appropriate for our American children to be learning about in our schools, I guess that fact is lost on you. I want our NATIONAL HOLIDAYS to be celebrated in schools along with all the others, that get some recognition and attention when they come around. The Muslims weren't around (in America) for our historic events that led to our celebration called THANKSGIVING, and they certainly weren't around (in America) when we fought for our liberation from the British that we celebrate and commemorate on the 4th of July...Independence Day, so because we have a NATIONAL HOLIDAY here in America, that celebrates those events, and it excludes certain ethnic groups, religious groups or nationalities foreign to us, should they be stricken for our public schools that might have a few Muslims in the classroom that will feel left out? If they want to remove Christmas as one of our NATIONAL Holidays, then they can have songs like Silent Night banned from the classrooms, when recognizing the Holiday for it's TRUE meaning. Until then, it's just as appropriate as singing GOD BLESS AMERICA or citing the Pledge of Allegiance. "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. " -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom and? This simply means that our founding fathers were wise enough not to ESTABLISH one religion. Like what they established as our nations LANGUAGE (English) they knew that trying to similary establish ONE religion would not be good for the country and all the different faiths that occupied it. Singing "Silent Night" in a public school in America, where CHRISTMAS is a NATIONAL Holiday does not forbid the practice of the other children and their families to worship or not worship as they wish. Banning such a song from the public schools is an attempt to ban a religion though, so I'd say your choice of Jefferson quotes is entirely AGAINST what you were trying to prove here. You have left all logic behind, haven't you? You're just not making one iota of sense here. If "banning" Silent Night from a public school is banning Christianity, then you also have to sing Islamic carols, or else you've banned Islam. And don't forget the Scientology carols, the Jewish carols, the Flying Spaghetti Monster carols... there won't be any time for learning.... the kids will just sing hymns all day long. Jefferson said "every denomination"... that's a lot of denominations. I say we just leave religion out of public school. Remember, that's YOUR logic. Not mine. That's the corner that you just painted yourself into. So are you sticking with that? Or are you only against banning Christianity, and for banning all of the other religions? I remain quite certain that Jefferson is with me, not you. You're still free to mix religion with education all you want - you just can't ask me to pay for it. Send you kid to a private school if you want to, and teach them that the Earth is 6 thousand years old, and flat. That is your right. Removing hymns from public schools bans nothing.
  6. This is the same argument that Viper already gave, that we should keep singing Christian hymns in public schools, because we always have so far in America. By that logic, we should still have slaves, and women should not get to vote, and we should all pay taxes to the King of England. America changes. Get used to it. It isn't going to stop changing just because you don't care for it. It sounds like your describing what progressives want I bet if it was up to them so many years ago we would still have slavery and women not voting I don't have to get used to not hearing peaceful songs not be played.Funny how we have to hear rappers call woman names and glorify the thug life.in public but when it comes to songs about the king of kings the left deem it bad Hell as I said before the left view of life is backwards You are not making sense here, buddy. Who is having kids sing rap songs in school? If anyone is making kids sing NWA's "F the police", then by golly, I am against that!
  7. This is the same argument that Viper already gave, that we should keep singing Christian hymns in public schools, because we always have so far in America. By that logic, we should still have slaves, and women should not get to vote, and we should all pay taxes to the King of England. America changes. Get used to it. It isn't going to stop changing just because you don't care for it.
  8. No, it's a scientific theory - you know, the sort of thing that belongs in a school. Silent Night is a religious hymn, the sort of thing that belongs in a church. To many people.....religion is a THEORY as well. One that's been around a whole helluva lot longer than Darwins theory, but since you seem to wnat to pick and choose for yourself what's appropriate and not appropriate for our American children to be learning about in our schools, I guess that fact is lost on you. I want our NATIONAL HOLIDAYS to be celebrated in schools along with all the others, that get some recognition and attention when they come around. The Muslims weren't around (in America) for our historic events that led to our celebration called THANKSGIVING, and they certainly weren't around (in America) when we fought for our liberation from the British that we celebrate and commemorate on the 4th of July...Independence Day, so because we have a NATIONAL HOLIDAY here in America, that celebrates those events, and it excludes certain ethnic groups, religious groups or nationalities foreign to us, should they be stricken for our public schools that might have a few Muslims in the classroom that will feel left out? If they want to remove Christmas as one of our NATIONAL Holidays, then they can have songs like Silent Night banned from the classrooms, when recognizing the Holiday for it's TRUE meaning. Until then, it's just as appropriate as singing GOD BLESS AMERICA or citing the Pledge of Allegiance. "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination. " -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
  9. I took a class one time on the New Testament in college and in one of my papers I took a few swipes at modern churchgoers. I rattled off a collection of scripture from the Gospels and contrasted them with modern day customs that seemed contradictory. My instructor left a note on my paper urging me to consider how important tradition is to people apart from any religious doctrine. I had to concede that he had a point. I think it's just as valid with this issue. You see it a lot with married couples of differing faiths. They often get along in the early years but once the kids come along they each often wish to raise the children in whatever religious tradition they were raised with. This even holds true for Atheists more often than you might suppose. I think it's just human nature to be comforted by things that give us a feeling of consistency. For my part, I'm not particularly Catholic. My brother and I were raised Protestant and I can probably come up with a list of religious beliefs I disagree with Catholic doctrine on (transubstantiation being one of the big ones), but that hasn't kept my brother or me from attending Mass on occasion. Even though we were raised as Protestants in America, we're still partly descended from Irish Catholics so there's just something familiar and comforting about the more elaborate trappings of the Catholic faith. It's like visiting an old aunt around the holidays. Our religious and political beliefs might differ as we grow older but it's still nice to be able to connect with our roots regardless. Even today when I think of the movies I've seen, whenever religious ideas played a significant part (Boondock Saints comes immediately to mind) they often use Catholic churches as part of the setting more-so than Protestant ones despite the fact that this country is probably far more Protestant than Catholic. No matter how entrenched in the Protestant faith and beliefs we become there's still a shared history and a sense of tradition there. I think a lot of the anger and hostility that arises when people try to remove anything remotely religious from the public eye comes from that shared history to some degree. Even up until the 90's there has been conflict in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. Our ancestors came here partly to escape that kind of unproductive bickering. Avoiding it here has involved embracing a "live and let live" non-denominational approach to things. For those with connections to that history, when people begin to create conflicts over what seem to be relatively minor religious matters the specter of that old unending feud rears it's ugly head. I think that's just a certain cultural value that likely differs in certain ways from those who identify as Atheist or Agnostic. I think everyone is concerned about the beliefs of others infringing on their own rights. Atheists and Agnostics probably most of all. But I think the concerns the original founders had about establishing a state religion were originally geared towards avoiding legislation like the Test Acts rather than avoiding any public acknowledgment of religion and it's place in our history. As much as singing Christmas carols may seem like the establishment of Christianity as a state religion for Atheists and Agnostics, wiping out those public references and acknowledgments seems like the establishment of Atheism as the state religion for Catholics and Protestants. If there are those who really feel like Atheists are getting a raw deal out of all of this then they might better serve their cause by being very careful when picking their battles. I mean, even in a nation dominated by Christianity we still have abortion on demand because people tend to be resistant to changing things unless there's a very unambiguous reason to do so. I hear what you're saying here. At some point, religion is not just religion, it's also a part of our cultural heritage. I'm just saying that we do change our culture all the time, so saying that we've always done things a certain way doesn't mean much to me. But, I am sensitive to the feelings of others, so like I said in other posts, this is not the kind of thing that would put me on the warpath. Far from it. Like I said above, I wouldn't take any action against the school. I'd just talk to my kid, and try to see to it that they had a broad perspective on what religion is. I'd use it as a "teachable moment", as they say these days. I suppose that I might bring it up at the next parent-teacher conference, if I remembered to, and try to have the same conversation that we're having here. But my question to you is, do you feel like separation of church and state is also for the protection of the church? I mean, I'm pretty sure most of the Christians on the board would be pretty upset if the government asked that they start singing Obama carols at Sunday School. That would not go over real well, right? "On this day, our fearless leader Comrade Obama was boooooorn......" Not what you want, right? Well, then you know how I feel about Silent Night in a public school.
  10. It's a somewhat separate matter, but since you bring it up, I do think that the phrase "under god" should be taken out of the pledge. It wasn't there in the first place. It was added in modern times as a hysterical over-reaction to communism. I'm don't believe that I am under any god, and I would much prefer that my child is never made to say that he is. As for the song God Bless America, that's a bit different from Silent Night. Did you know that God Bless America was written by a Jew? Yes, Irving Berlin wrote it (name at birth: Israel Baline), and it doesn't mention Jesus, lemme tell ya. So it's a much different creature than Silent Night, which says "Christ, the Saviour, is born!", and "Jesus, Lord at Thy birth". As the original article says, it's a very difficult matter to decide exactly which songs are "too religious", and so I would grant any school a lot of leeway there. But it seems to me that it's just a no-brainer to not ask that a Jewish kid sing "Christ, the Saviour, is born". That's pretty simple, really... if you have a modicum of respect and tolerance for people who are different from you. If a Christian kid was asked to sing a song with the lyrics "there is no god but Allah"... oh man, the excrement would really hit the air distribution device.
  11. No, it's a scientific theory - you know, the sort of thing that belongs in a school. Silent Night is a religious hymn, the sort of thing that belongs in a church. When I was a kid, singing songs at school in the late 70's and early 80's, we used to sing Christmas carols. We also sang one Jewish song, in the name of equality, I guess. We sang "Driedel, driedel, driedel". I never minded that, I thought it was interesting to learn a bit about what my Jewish friends were doing over the holidays. Of course, nowadays we have Muslim students in the schools too. If you leave religion in the schools, I promise you, someone will insist that the kids start singing some Islamic songs, in the name of equality. And then, Uncle Jessie will be here, foaming at the mouth about how our kids are being "indoctrinated". Are you really sure you want religion in schools? What are you gonna do when that religion ain't yours? Ok, let me understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that it IS OK for Christian songs to be allowed during christian holidays as long as they also teach Muslim and other religious songs in our schools during their holidays? If so, then I'm cool with that. Teaching and understanding ALL religions in schools is fine with me. Just as no one is offended by me wishing someone Merry Christmas. I've never been offended by someone wishing me Happy Hanukkah to me, or any other response. Yeah, it's fine with me to spend some time on religion in school, as long as you're covering all the bases. That would fall under the category of Social Studies, I guess. I think it helps build tolerance to learn about other people's beliefs. I think it's probably impossible to make even a little bit of sense out of modern world events if you don't have an understanding of the basics of religion. I'm not really sure why it's necessary to actually sing religious songs, but to be honest with you, if my kid came home from school and told me that he sang Silent Night that day, I wouldn't get upset over it. I'd just explain to the child what the song meant, and then I'd make sure that they understood a bit about some of the other celebrations going on. Everyone does something at the winter solstice, and all of those celebrations are wonderful in their own way. And no, I would never freak out over someone wishing me a Merry Christmas. I try not to freak out over anything, but definitely not that. I've heard there are people who are that zealous about their atheism, but I've never met one, and I live in libtard central.
  12. No, it's a scientific theory - you know, the sort of thing that belongs in a school. Silent Night is a religious hymn, the sort of thing that belongs in a church. When I was a kid, singing songs at school in the late 70's and early 80's, we used to sing Christmas carols. We also sang one Jewish song, in the name of equality, I guess. We sang "Driedel, driedel, driedel". I never minded that, I thought it was interesting to learn a bit about what my Jewish friends were doing over the holidays. Of course, nowadays we have Muslim students in the schools too. If you leave religion in the schools, I promise you, someone will insist that the kids start singing some Islamic songs, in the name of equality. And then, Uncle Jessie will be here, foaming at the mouth about how our kids are being "indoctrinated". Are you really sure you want religion in schools? What are you gonna do when that religion ain't yours?
  13. NATIONAL HOLIDAYS New Year's Day Martin Luther King Day President's Day Memorial Day Independence Day Labor Day Columbus Day Veterans Day Thanksgiving Day Christmas Day "In a strict sense, there are no national holidays in the United States. Each of the 50 states has jurisdiction over its own holidays. The above ten holidays are proclaimed by the federal government as holidays for federal government employees and most states observe these holidays on the same dates (commonly called legal or public holidays)." http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/National_Symbols/American_Hollidays.html Our schools (in America) all recognize our FEDERAL holidays, of which CHRISTMAS is clearly one of them even despite this asinine attempt to use the old "separation of Church and State" crap to remove it as such. I guess if you want to live in America, and attend our public schools, you'll just have to TOLERATE our American traditions, our history, pledge ALLEGIANCE to our flag and be a good little Yankee bastard, or stay home and have Mommy teach you how to read and write and worship ALLAH or Gandi or the great nothing. http://usa.usembassy.de/holidays.htm http://usa.usembassy.de/holidays-xmas.htm I understand you are quoting the holidays from a different site, so it isn't your words. However, I am suprised that Columbus day is still considered a national holiday or MLK Day...but that's what it is. Christmas has been a FEDERALLY recognized (traditional) holiday since 1870 though. It's in the very fabric of our country and our traditions, whether you're a Christian or not. We are what we are and it p!sses me off that people want to try and CHANGE all that, as though all we've been is something "bad" because a few foreigners and non-traditional types don't feel the same warm and fuzzies as we do, as a COUNTRY! Slavery used to be "what we are", and they CHANGED that. Did that p!ss you off, too? We CHANGED the fact that women were not allowed to vote... were you for or against that, at the time? Heck, we even CHANGED the constitution right after we made it, by adding ten amendments. Where did you stand on those? Seems to me that CHANGE has been a big part of the USA from the start. I'm sorry that it's so scary to ya. I promise, the USA will be just fine. We've done ok for 200+ years... I think we can survive a quarrel over religious songs. Get overly dramatic and off topic much? That's rhetorical by the way. Trying to equate the singing of "Silent Night" to that of keeping slaves and treating women as 2nd class citizens is pretty lame, but I suspect you already know that, and had nothing better to add to the logic being expressed by others, so far in this topic? No, you're lame for saying that I was equating the two. But I suspect that your lameness is not news to you, since I've pointed it out dozens of times. The point I was making, the point which sailed far over your head, is that our country does change. So saying "That the way we always done it" is meaningless. You need a much better reason than that, or else you are simply lame. How about you give non-lameness a shot? Speak to my prior comment - if you can put some religion in my school, can i put some Darwin in your church? Does that make sense to you?
  14. Cinco de Mayo commemorates an historical event. History is absolutely appropriate in a school. Mexican history is inextricably linked with United States history.
  15. NATIONAL HOLIDAYS New Year's Day Martin Luther King Day President's Day Memorial Day Independence Day Labor Day Columbus Day Veterans Day Thanksgiving Day Christmas Day "In a strict sense, there are no national holidays in the United States. Each of the 50 states has jurisdiction over its own holidays. The above ten holidays are proclaimed by the federal government as holidays for federal government employees and most states observe these holidays on the same dates (commonly called legal or public holidays)." http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/National_Symbols/American_Hollidays.html Our schools (in America) all recognize our FEDERAL holidays, of which CHRISTMAS is clearly one of them even despite this asinine attempt to use the old "separation of Church and State" crap to remove it as such. I guess if you want to live in America, and attend our public schools, you'll just have to TOLERATE our American traditions, our history, pledge ALLEGIANCE to our flag and be a good little Yankee bastard, or stay home and have Mommy teach you how to read and write and worship ALLAH or Gandi or the great nothing. http://usa.usembassy.de/holidays.htm http://usa.usembassy.de/holidays-xmas.htm I understand you are quoting the holidays from a different site, so it isn't your words. However, I am suprised that Columbus day is still considered a national holiday or MLK Day...but that's what it is. Christmas has been a FEDERALLY recognized (traditional) holiday since 1870 though. It's in the very fabric of our country and our traditions, whether you're a Christian or not. We are what we are and it p!sses me off that people want to try and CHANGE all that, as though all we've been is something "bad" because a few foreigners and non-traditional types don't feel the same warm and fuzzies as we do, as a COUNTRY! Slavery used to be "what we are", and they CHANGED that. Did that p!ss you off, too? We CHANGED the fact that women were not allowed to vote... were you for or against that, at the time? Heck, we even CHANGED the constitution right after we made it, by adding ten amendments. Where did you stand on those? Seems to me that CHANGE has been a big part of the USA from the start. I'm sorry that it's so scary to ya. I promise, the USA will be just fine. We've done ok for 200+ years... I think we can survive a quarrel over religious songs.
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