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Everything posted by obiwanjacoby

  1. Okay, I'll bite. Let's say the line was only 25 figures. - Two characters with the same torso (same shirt) doesn't phase me because your argument amounts to: "Individual wrinkles in the BDUs = ICONIC. @loll@ koo-koo. . . - Same goes for the pants, BTW. Just using Flint as an example (because he got the most overall abuse), the most important parts of his character are ignored by yourself and VH for the sake of PANTS AND SHIRT. OMG. Damn that evil Hasbro. Viva the collector's revolution. Waka waka. I have a paper trail in this thread that makes the above statement look 100% like a blatant false accusation. I suppose my point-by-point answers with specific quotes and reiterations here won't convince you either. "Sigh," next I expect you'll accuse me of being a shill or something. . .right? -PJ
  2. Oh, so you agree that there's nothing backing your opinion other than you think "they suck," is that it? Really trying not to talk over your head here. . . Did you read what Gunslinger wrote? Your separations are totally arbitrary. You got Storm Shadow v1. "as close as they can get (with a somewhat 'updated' feel)," then you justify SE v.1 as actually needing more detail, and then you sweepingly state that Flint, SE v.2, and Stormy v.2 as not looking anything like their RAH versions. Colors, overall artistic design, costumes, etc. all resemble their 80s designs by the upper 90% rate. Is Flint missing his beret? No? Well then he's looks something like his ARAH version, toppling your exaggerrative statement right out of the gate. Is his khaki shirt black? CHECK. How's his hair color? Pants design? Gloves? CHECKCHECKCHECK. He's even got a green shotgun. And VH says Hasbro screwed him. Then you're arguing for visible rivets in the shoulders, less articulation, and less paint masks. . .right? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? -PJ
  3. The original point is that I still haven't seen anything to justify your side. No, have I? So it's a cheap shortcut; I didn't dispute that*. I'm asking if the cheap shortcut in this case is genuinely a "bad" thing, and if so. . .then how is it bad? Why is it bad? I seem to be repeating myself as well and getting a whole lot of nothing. Well, other than, "it's bad, sux, it just does, etc." This reminds me of that Apple Jacks commercial where the silly adult says, "Why?" And the kewl kid looks stumped for a brief moment and says something akin to, "Because we do; so there!" Then the rest of the crowd laughs and falls in line with the brilliant rhetoric. "Just so" statements are worth only so much as the statement itself. @loll@ You took it three whole threads dude! And you have to admit that you got alot of people agreeing with you. And yes, you actually did throw the "right" and "wrong" labels out very generously, you want me to quote you? What else am I to believe? Is this your baby or something? You seem to want to come across as caring about the subject even more than the designers. huh? I've posted novels on the "whys"...so much so, that others are bemoaning the fact that I CONTINUE to express the SAME opinions on the SAME subject matter, to the point of nausea! @lol@ Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Got a cut & paste of your earlier statements? Maybe I missed something. I know you're making the same opinions, but you just don't have anything to really back it up other than, "It's cheap and the fans deserve more." Is that a fair way to sum it up? Is that your final statement? Why do they absolutely have to have their own unique molds? What exactly is your standard of "better"? See my previous posts on this. What does your template of perfection look like? What we're essentially doing is arguing Plato's ideal horse, aren't we? Where did the ideal Flint come from? What's it based on? If it comes from the original 1985 toy, then there is no way to improve Flint aesthetically. This of course, is totally absurd, because action figure sculpting/painting has come a long way since '85. If it's based on someone's line art or painting, then who's art is it based on? To me, the ideal the Hasbro designers seemed to be shooting for at the time was simply a realistic looking design, as opposed to some idealized superhero. But over time, the characters themselves became iconic. See, a Duke just isn't Duke without his lack of helmet, "Dudley-do-right" chin and confident smile. Is that right? Some have argued against that. So then we're back to square one. What is it that makes the ideal Duke? Not my excuse. I still don't see your personal standard of greatness. I see it as still "undefined" or else it's just personally subjective to Viper Hunter. I also notice you're not taking my statements point-by-point like you do with so many other posters. Is there something you'd rather be left overlooked? Hm? Not my agenda. -PJ *Even tho' it's just a few pre-painted torsos and legs from some cherry-picked figures while ignoring the others that are "pretty much the same" (Cobra Officer/Trooper).
  4. Okay, "perfectly accurate" as in. . . - matching the original 80s card art? - matching the original 80s preproduction design specs? - matching the toon's cel animation? - matching the comic art? - matching the original 80s molds? WHICH ideal reflects your definition of "perfectly accurate?" Perfectly accurate to. . .what? If you're arguing the last point, then are you saying you wanted less detail then? Monochrome eyes and limited paint masks? Is that what you wanted? They are to me. In the case of Storm Shadow v.2 it's just extra added detail to me. It doesn't detract from the overall look. What's so half-assed? Really? You're making it out like they're re-using the Duke mold for everybody. FLINT: You're arguing pants and a shirt, that's all. SE v.2: Did you say the same about SE v.23? I say they can have some creative leeway. Storm Shadow v.2: You might have a case in regards to the embroidery on the collar, that's it. Are you saying that Storm Shadow's arm-wrappings must be wound exactly 17 1/2 times around his forearm? Are you saying Flint must absolutely have a lob-sided grin? Are you saying SE must have exactly six slits in his visor and no more than three colors? Correct! Which details are the ones that matter the most, and which ones can we let slide? The length of a sleeve? Yes, of course. Scarlett's wrist gun or slingshot? No, I'd take issue with it, but it still doesn't detract from her character to make a dramatic difference. Correct. Destro's head isn't chromed for one thing, Scarlett has long hair, and Flint's not smirking. These are the things we've learned to be flexible about. . . . This whole dispute is about certain fans who say that artists can have ZERO amount of artistic license and at the same time must reproduce a character based on no concrete fixed ideal. Doesn't look the least bit fair to me.@grumpy@ This isn't Michelangelo's David. Give the artist some breathing room. These figures would do Herb Trimpe or Rod Whigham's interps of the characters proud, so that's fantastic for me. -PJ
  5. See above. I repeat, these are standard uniforms we're talking. You saying you wanted Flint to be taller, shorter, fatter, skinnier. . .??? You're not elaborating enough. Are you assuming that's the absolute limit? Okay. . .um, because one is wearing a traditional ninja uniform? That's my point. You're welcome to come up with an alternate example though. Oopsie. @lol@ I'm saying in the sense of standardized real-world-uniforms. You get a stock khaki Army Officer's shirt, then it'll be the same throughout the US Army. I'm saying you're missing the fact that even though Hasbro missed your personal level of standard detail (whatever that is, you still won't specify), they still get a pass for staying within realism. It's that attention to realism that I think Bozigian and Co, would appreciate. Flint and Duke have the same shirt, only Flint's is his trademark black. No biggie; no foul. And as for the rest. . .pants is pants. Did you give credit for the gloves at least? I know Hasbro plastic runs through your veins and all, but this is ridiculous. >_< Yep, and I don't lose any sleep over it. EDIT: Apart from heads and gloves and trademark beret and weapons, of course. But you're not arguing that. What's to imagine? These are as realistic as the uniforms get. My wife used to be a seamstress at a military surplus, she's trying to figure out what your point is as well. Duke: I'll take that shirt Flint: Same here, but make mine black. Still waiting. @lol@ Good one! -PJ
  6. Ya, Rly. I'm saying you could push me to your side if you give a convincing enough argument. Yes. Because I really mean what I say. This debate has gone three whole threads now, and I'm asking what the big deal is. It's too vague for me to grasp. Seriously. But you're not going anywhere with it. You oppose Hasbro re-using the Duke mold (pre-paint and pre-accessory, mind you) because. . .why? -PJ
  7. I guees my whole point is this. If this were a Batman figure we were arguing, it would be one side is demanding the Bob Kane version when we're getting the Neal Adams version. I mean geez, think of all the little artistic details that character has had changed on him: Symbols, belts, cape, ears, boots, the whole bit. He's still Batman. Sure, the puritanical "Comic Book Guys" of the world out there would object, but I hope the Joe community hasn't been reduced to this level yet. As for the 25th Joe collection, Flint is so very much more the same "Flint" than he was in '85. Of course, these are pieces of standard military clothing, and not superhero costumes; so to argue those points would be even more extremely nitpicky. Because what I think is being pushed is a superhero aesthetic on pieces of mixed standard fatigues. -PJ
  8. Words in my mouth; I'm just looking for a case to be made here. So you're arguing pockets. . .and a jump pin? C'mon let's itemize this. I agree. But these are in the end standardized uniforms no matter how the Joes mix and match. I don't see the case for making a stink about it unless Duke is wearing say. . .spandex shorts. You see it as Hasbro forcing a smaller version of the "dress up doll" (negative). I see it as adding more "snap-on, stay-on" accessories (positive). "Wrong" x 2? How? Help me out. What I'm saying is, "Why not the entire body?" Sure, it's cheap. But I don't see the reason to go to war over it, seeing as you get 95-99% the same overall design as the original figure. I don't see it. We're talking degrees of difference, IMO. I'm not going to throw up the whole tooling costs jive, I just want a case to be made that states why Flint deserves his own special custom khaki shirt and pants. And Flint's my fave Joe of them ALL, I got alot of personal childhood invested in that one. I think he's near-perfect. Now, his jump pin I guess you could make a case for, but it's no biggie if they're both master jumpers, right? But in the end, Flint and Duke's uniforms are what. . .95-99% the same without the pins and extra gear? -PJ
  9. What were we arguing again? Flint's black khaki shirt vs. Duke's khaki shirt, right? That's what all this amounts to? #WTF# VH and others are saying that. . .instead of more removable accessories, they want them molded on or something? WHAT? What exactly are you guys complaining about? Yeah, I saw the little comparison pic shopped up; didn't see the point of it then either. And if we're arguing reused torsos, this goes double for Cobra Officer and Trooper's torsos. . .right? -PJ
  10. Excuse me? You hitched your cart to a series of quotes above, one of which. . . . . .you C&P'd and quoted directly yourself. You didn't mean to take away from the man's work. . .and then you up & do just that. Take some responsibility for what you post. If you meant to take back your statements (as you seem to be doing), why not do just that instead of passing blame and saying I misconstrued you? The quotes are plain. You were throwing in with the crowd. What I want to know is, were you saying here that Hama's Joe work is military fantasy, whereas Clancy's fiction was not? Have you been watching C-SPAN recently? Oh, and I hate to pile on more reasons why the comparison is invalid, but they're two totally different entertainment mediums that you're comparing. Why don't you compare him with another comic writer. . .like I've been asking the whole time? OH! Well, too bad I had to mention them for you, huh? Why didn't you just do that to begin with? We can't read your mind, just what you wrote verbatum. . .which of course, mentioned nothing about Wolverine, the annuals, etc. at the time. Great. Let's hear 'em then! Who are these crazy people anyway? I'm waiting. Oh, a diversion. Very clever. This is the ARAH board, where since 1982, GIJoes have had "a soul" packaged on every individual card. Your fully poseable art-mannequin everyman is indeed iconic, but you and I both know that isn't what I was talking about. Oh, WOW. . .that--oh man that was pure lawyering brilliance. Kudos. This one's getting archived. My hat's off to you. See above. Without the filecard that Hama put into each figure and the comic, there never would have been a Sunbow toon and the figures would have never made it past a year or two. Heck, there never would have been a Cobra enemy. Yah, sorry I tried to pigeonhole you and all. I guess to be fair according to your standard, I should have lumped in AT, Super-Joe w/the 1-2 punch, Sgt. Savage, and Extreme at the same time. . .given your reasoning. Right? @loll@ As they say, when you're losing. . .move the goal-posts, amirite? And you sure did a swell job there, the problem is that you still overlooked a few of my points above, and you're still being purposefully vague. Please name the specifics I asked for. Answering my other questions might help as well. -PJ
  11. Wow, no love for Larry here. @hmmm@ Just keep in mind that he didn't have the connections that Tom Clancy did, nor was he allowed to write with 100% freedom because he was forced to feature the newest toys. Not too fair of a comparison at all you guys. Did you read any of his stint on Wolverine? Did you read what Chris Clairmont thought of Hama's treatment of the character? He said it was second only to his own! And again, I'd like to ask, "He wasn't that great of a writer compared to. . .who?" Please cite the same-old story arcs brought up by these so-called blind Hama worshippers, and I'll match you piece-for-piece! Did you read any of the Joe Annuals? Did you read Hama's run on Special Missions? The preview from ARAH #50 alone would have given Clancy himself a run for his money! You realize Larry Hama proliferated the Wally Wood oldskool technique. . .right? http://joeljohnson.com/archives/2006/08/wally_woods_22.html. Are you aware that one of the biggest "Hama worshippers" out there is Mark Bellomo, who just happens to be a frickin' Hemingway scholar himself? To top it all off, without Hama's writing there would never be a 25th anniversary collection. Enjoy your Joes. -PJ
  12. That's right VH, zero in on the weak target there and hope no one notices. @smilepunch@ Thought for sure you were going to carve out a flaw in my post, but instead. . . -PJ
  13. Just a quick queston for Justin. . . Are the 25th ann. figures a resurrection of the 3 3/4" line, or should the anniversary collection be considered its own 4" line? I'm hearing conflicting reports about exactly how tall they are. -PJ
  14. Yeah, I don't get that at all. You wouldn't see the same complaints with say, a 25th Flash figure that's head-swapped and repainted into a silver pads Grand-Slam. I mean if the same two vintage Joes are wearing say. . .the same BDU-style pants, or a featureless T-shirt with bare upper-arms, then I won't pitch a fit if the same exact parts show up on two of their 25th ann. counterparts. Just don't repaint the heads is all I'm asking. -PJ
  15. I sincerely believe that they did it because alot of fans grew up with one version of a character or the other, but not both. In fact, I didn't grow up with anyone that had both SEs or CCs. As for myself, I was never even able to get any of the popular figs. Other than that, I also think there's many reasons for Hasbro's decision when you look at each character individually. - Many collectors consider having both CCs a must because he switches headgear so frequently. So naturally, he gets two. I'd be surprised if he didn't. - On nearly all the fanboards I've been to over the years, there's always a split vote between "Strictly-Commando-Snake-Eyes" and the "More-Ninja-fortified-Snake-Eyes." So to satisfy the diverse collector base, he gets two. - My first Storm Shadow was v.2, because v.1 was actually HTF even back in the day. Also, many collectors like him better as a Joe or Hama-inspired rogue operative (more character development that way). To support this POV, I must also necessarily believe that Hasbro has not devoted a strict "25-figure limit," or even a strict limit at all. Sure, this is just a guess on my part. But then speculation is always a gamble, innit? -PJ
  16. You put an impressive amount of work into that for sure. I love how you found a use for the sonic backpacks. -PJ
  17. "Hasblow" is about as old as Big Brawler jokes. So yeah, you must have been gone awhile. But you haven't really missed anything yet. -PJ
  18. "boing. . .boing" Spidey: Gah! Nothing seems to stick to this guy! Cap: It couldn't be the board we're using, could it? Both: D'OH! :rimshot: -PJ
  19. Okay, so in the end you were just speaking for yourself. If you didn't happen to mention surrendering yourself to "the best you could expect," then that's all the rest of us had to go on. By predicting the enthusiasm for these is overall lower than. . .what? Compared to what? I'm pretty up front about how I feel about the Joe toys and the community. If fans as a whole had as much of a subversive agenda as you seem to be alluding to, what would you call it? Are you saying that the majority of fans are shilling for Hasbro or what? Please specify this overall "fan zeitgeist" that you're alluding to. Quite the opposite as I take it. I understand it to mean you were doubtful at first and then those doubts began to subside. True, but it's still an overall positive statement. And all I was saying was that those fans who are still on the fence will weigh in once they have progressively accepted the 25th figures based on their own merits. Usually if they accept them out of a sense of dejected fatalism (as you assert) that feeling is usually followed with a whiny rant. Oh, now we're down to arguing the few bad apples instead of the whole bunch? All I've seen so far is "sandals" and "waist" from just a couple people out of thousands of collectors. That's it. Well, now you're seeing it my way. I like the analytical progress of your post. All I was saying was "yes" it does start as negative, then it gets progressively better after staring at it for some time. My POV says that's a sign of growing enthusiasm. Your POV says it all like it's the final stage of mourning; "acceptance" or some such. @loll@ Holy crap, how negative is that? But in a sense you are correct. If we get the 25th figs in hand and they fall completely apart like the Superhero Showdown figs, then peeks at preview pics on the web won't mean a thing. But IMO, that's definitely not gonna happen. I'll lay my money down that these will hold up just as well as the Star Wars Saga figures. -PJ
  20. Are we just counting the active posters on the fan boards, or. . .??? But when the poster says they're "warming up to it," shouldn't we simply take them at their word? To do anything else would unfairly assert an inner-motive to a collector that may or may not truly exist. I understand that you think it's a form of surrender on the part of the fan, but in the end all you're really doing is projecting a negative attitude on the poster when it wasn't specifically stated. For example, I was never originally a fan of Microman figures, that is until their version of Batman and Batgirl came out. I "warmed up to it" after seeing them carded at a local comic shop. Later on, I was one of the first in the Joe community to suggest that Microman-style articulation should be given to Joe figures. So if you wanna, you can blame me for all this. I don't mind. -PJ
  21. Pest; Cynic, I'm sorry you both misunderstood me. I was clearly not talking about knee-jerk contrarians who skim the post and think I'm talking to them personally. I was talking about collectors who have commonly said "I'm warming up to these." Nor was I trying to put words into your mouth or trying to tell you how to think. So since I'm relating what other individual collectors have honestly posted in the past*, I believe I am entirely accurate, because I tend to take collectors at their word when they post. -PJ *Not counting Hasbro shills, who like anything w/the logo and never need warming up to anything.
  22. I hope no one here has forgotten to consider the "warmup factor" here. As in, "The more I look at these, the more I'm warming up to them." Sound familiar? I have noticed collectors doing this alot in the past. As for myself, everytime I look at the most recent Flint pic (the one w/the watermark), the more I want to get it. In fact, they actually thought of some pretty obscure details. . .like the green shotgun. Almost like they anticipated a nitpicky fan like me popping off with, "Hey, why isn't the shotgun green?" @eyerise@ -PJ
  23. OH! Who suggested PYTHON PATROL? Hasbro could get some sweet repaint money out of me! -PJ
  24. These second pics look great. Is Flint's head a redo of the previous sample pics that some of us saw, but were taken down? Because it looks different. Did Hasbro change the head? -PJ
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