So No Tornato

I'm not a huge fan of those particular artists either, but I contend that it's not so much that they can't draw as it's just a stylistic choice that they make in their approach. Everyone has a different sense of visual aesthetics so it's not going to appeal to everyone, but I chalk it up to artistic license. I just don't think it's fair to generalize and say all comics today are crap. Especially when you do acknowledge that some current creators can draw. I thought you were just griping for the sake of griping in your first post. My respect for the contributions increased when I realized there would be constructive discussion and not just angry fanboy ranting. Alright. For the record, I withdraw the statement/sentiment that "all comics are crap". Some are interesting. I appreciated ULTIMATES but dropped the book when Hawkeye's children were murdered in Volume 2. In my view that was gratuitous and unneccesary. However, the new take on the Avengers was not your typical comic yarn, so that's worth something. I also enjoyed the reboot on Squadron Supreme that Strazynski and Frank are doing, but somewhere along the way I lost interest. Also, the Nighthawk mini-series was wretched and pointlessly violent; I don't understand why bad langauge, gore and ultra-violence are entertaining - to me, that's more disturbing than the T&A factor I previously mentioned. Regarding the stylistic choice you mention...perhaps. But I'm not sold. Take Kirby (again!) as an example. He clearly had a diferent style in the late 60's than he did in the early 60's, and earlier in his career. His earlier style was more rooted in classic illustration. Toward the mid to late 60's, he adopted a pop-art style that I greatly appreciate. He and Ditko were the among the first comic "impressionists". Clearly, there was a stylistic choice. Until I see Turner, et al, produce illustration grounded more in the classical school, I'm not yet willing to grant them this distinction (which, I'm sure causes them loads of anxiety!) Also, just for the record, the modern artists I most admire are Allred (funky and original), Ross (classic), Jae Lee (also very original...and a tad weird), Darwyn Cooke (has a 60's-retro feel, like the Jetsons), and Steve Epting (extremely good and extremely under-rated). Hope that clears things up a bit.

Don't know why you're getting defensive. Nostalgia is key for me, too, which is why I collect old comics and buy things like MASTERWORKS. And you're right, guys like Turner, Liefeld, etc, do sell...which means there's no accounting for taste, and also that I have very little in common with the average comics fan. But I strongly disagree with the assertion that "we tend to get some actual thinking with the comics these days." Frankly, we get too much thinking, most of it poorly conceived. The actual plots of comics haven't changed - ultimately, it all comes down to "good guy punches bad guy". The irony is that today's knucklehead "creators" actually think their drivel is original. I especially love it when thse clowns try to use comics to make a poiltical statement, since most of them have a high-school sophomore's understanding of politics. What made Lee, Kirby et al, great was that they weren't trying to make "great comics" - they were trying to sell comics, and they ended up making magic. That's why, almost 40 years later, their work is considered definitive. Hate to say it, but there's not a thing happening in comics today that anyone will be talking about in 5 years, let alone 40. It's junk.

I don't know much about preserving it, but if you want to remove it, soak the figure in ammonia. The ammonia will peel the metal finish right off, and leave a nice, paintable pearl finish. And it doesn't hurt the plastic...at all. ...in case you were wondering...

I seem to remember seeing pics a while back of a MACH-1 figure being planned for release by Toy-Biz in an upcoming Wave of SMC. It was basically a red, white, and blue repaint of the excellent BEETLE figure from SMC 14 or 15...although it didn't really look that great as MACH-1... Does anyone else remember this? Did it die with the HASBRO deal? Or have I been skipping my medication? @hmmm@

Quite true, and an excellent point. Not only are the pecs huge, but oftentimes the characters (especially the men) are drawn with muscle groups that don't even exist! Which all goes back to my earlier supposition that many of today's "artists" can't draw! The best example (other than Liefeld, who is little more than a walking parody) is Michael Turner. This guy is the most over-rated artist in the business - I mean, he's terrible! His women have 2-inch waists, absurdly long legs, and they all have the same pouty lips and over-sized eyes. His male figures are over-muscled, and all look like pixies. Yet he gets more and more work. Contrast that with guys like Buscema, Kirby, Romita...and Davis, Cassaday, and Hitch...who've clearly studied classic anatomy and know how to draw. The difference is astounding. BTW...I thought you didn't like the direction this thread was going?

Sorry, but I don't agree that we should market to the lowest common denominator simply because "it sells"...and that axiom applies to any product, not just comics. It leads inevitably to the degradation and quality of the product, and that's bad for everyone. Long Live The Comics Code!!

Well we obviously disagree, but I appreciate the well-written, thoughtful reply, so I thought I'd respond in kind. As background, I was out of comics between 1978 and 1995, which is a long period of time. I got back in in '95 ("Age of Apocalypse" did it!), and only recently decided to get back out. The whole "IMAGE" thing you mentioned is definitely a factor in why (IMO) comics are bad today, but not the whole reason. I wll say that the IMAGE-era definitely redefined the importance of artists (mostly) and writers (to a lesser extent), and this change was (again, IMO) NOT a positive factor. I won't get into to any more detail of why hated the IMAGE-era itself except to say "bad art, bad writing, and huge egos". The fall-out has been the "Creator" (a term I despise) as "celebrity", and this too often over-shadows the quality of the books. Just a quick glance at WIZARD and the myriad articles on "Joe Blow to write Super-Man" will confirm this. Coinciding with their newfound celebrity status is a huge boost in ego whereby they feel free to crap on everything that came before them, issue continual pronouncements of how things are "gonna change", but still basically do work that is completely derivative of the past. By this I mean that no matter who's writing Captain America, the BIG story will ALWAYS have the Red Skull (created by Jack Kirby) as the villain; the FF (created by Kirby and Lee) will face-off against Dr. Doom in their grande finale, and what X-Men (Lee and Kirby) story would be complete without Magneto? LIkewise at DC, it's Green Lantern vs. Sinestro, Bats vs. the Joker, and Superman vs. (surprise!) Lex Luthor. In a word...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...and these "creators" think they're brilliant. Now...onto loftier things. Hitch, Davis, and Cassaday are excellent artist precisely because (IMO) they're "old school". In other words, unlike most of today's artists, they actually know how to draw! But as an old-school guy myself, I can't yet place them in the same league with guys like Kirby, Ditko, Buscema, Romita, etc. These old-school guys were pioneers who produced outstanding work without the benefit of modern technology. If they were around today, they'd be at the top of the game. Finally, I dislike today's comics PRECISELY because they're written for adults. Comics are supposed to be for kids! I don't mean any disrespect by that, but it's true, especially for super-heroes. Super-heroes are an inherently silly concept...let's be honest...and to me, the fact that comic stores are packed each wednesday with grown men is kinda' scary. Comics aren't literature, with some exception (notably, "Watchmen" comes to mind). They were great when I was a kid, they taught me about nobility, and doing the right thing, as well as vastly improving my reading and writing skills. Today's comics...written for adults...are simultaneoulsy pretentious and simplistic. They're for adults, but inevitably the stories are way too basic. Seriously, the end of every epic storyline at Marvel and DC always ends with a big slug-fest! So basically, it's a kid's story wrapped-up in adult trim. I can't believe that grown men prefer this. And don't even get me started on the idiocy of the "bad girl" craze...grown men looking at scantily-clad cartoon women...creepy! So tha'ts why I don't read new comics. I prefer to wait for new editons of Marvel Masterworks...those are still the best comics out there, even after 30-40 years.

$11.49 each?!?!?!? Yikes! Wait a few months, and grab them at TARGET. Times Square TRU is always a ridiculous gip, but $11.49?!?!? Are they crazy???

I used to read Marvel. But the current state of comics is (IMO) crap. So I don't read new comics anymore. Comics today are pretentious and self-indulgent. The guys who write them (especially at Marvel) labor under the (false) assumption that they're hip and cutting edge, when in fact much of what they do is completely derivative of what came before them, and often years and years before them. The storylines are cliche' and often full of cheesecake, fanboy-esque art of women that is so juvenille it's laughable (case in point: the ubiquitous and ridiculously oversized mammmary glands that most female characters have). And then you have the so-called geniuses who seem to think that immature shock value is a substitue for cleverness and good writing (case in point: the undeserved hype over "Preacher", one of the stupidest comics written in the last 10 years). Today's comic "creators" (what a laughable phrase) are pip-squeaks standing on the shoulders of giants. But people lap it up....

Hey, different strokes for different folks...

...and you would actually...wear these??? Wow.

At this point? ALL of them.

SOON TO BE SEEN IN HASBRO: Marvel Legends - WAVE 5!!!!! LOL! You know it's coming!

Only Kirby and Ditko.

Since when is Quicksilver part of Wave 3??? Hydra Soldier? As a full-fledged fig and NOT a pack-in?? With 2 SKUs??? Sorry...I smell a scam.

Adam Warlock Killraven (I know it'll never happen...) Ronan Bloodstone (...never happen...) Nova Sunfire

I think it's safe to say that we can expect a lot of Movie-figs in 2007 from HASBRO: Ghost-Rider, Spidey 3, Fantastic Four 2 (and Iron-Man in 2008). This is both good and bad. Good because I want Marvel Figs; bad because it will detract from efforts spent making "Marvel Legends", and the movie-figs are usually a bit..different (at least they were with Toy-Biz). I wouldn't be surprised if this happened, because it makes good business sense. MARVEL is increasingly expanding the entertainment/movie/film portion of their business. They'd naturally want these efforts reflected in other functional areas of their business, and Toys is an obvious place. Additionally, HASBRO are experts at promoting what? Toys based on movies, that's what! If this happens, we may only see 2-3 Legends Waves per year at retail. Coupled with the fact that Legends is now considered "a collectors line", and the fact that we're not getting any box sets or Face-Offs in 2007, I'd say this scenario is a distinct possibility. Marvel fanatics like me may have to get their fixes via special promotions (conventions, mail-in, etc) that HASBRO is also good at. Possible...but I hope not. Thoughts?

Uggh. If true, this may be the first Wave of Marvel Legends that I completely skip. I'm so sick of friggin' X-Men...a whole wave?!?!?! Blech!!! I hope the BAF is also lame...that way, I won't be tempted. The only one that is remotely interesting is FA Storm, 'cause she's from the 70's (like me). Even so, given the poor job on Wave 1 Emma Frost, I'm not going to expect much from Hasbro ML chicks (until they prove me wrong)

Actually, I still use the '97 Toy-Biz Scarlet Witch, and display her with my ML Avengers. She's a much better sculpt than that hunk-of-junk we got with ML 11, even without the articulation. Maybe a tad short, but hey, the difference in scale adds more realism (IMO) - and they can't all be the same height!

Yea, its most likely. Hasbro doesn't actually show their stuff at the Toy Fair building--they have their own private location for press showings off the premises. Even so, the event of Toy Fair is the ideal time because that is when orders can be made, and press given a look at upcoming product, so its to Hasbro's advantage to showcase stuff then. The second chance is at the San Diego Comic Con, but that's too far into the year for a overall showing. More than likely what will happen is that, AT LEAST, the confirmed character lists will be released, control art of said characters if their protos are not ready, and the actual painted two-ups on display, if they are ready. They might also have press photos of the figures ready for release to better showcase the product itself , though the stuff is usually more "interesting" seen with the display backdrops and such at the showing. Agreed. In fact, I'd be surprised if we didn't see Waves 4 and 5 at Toy Fair in Feb. Waves 1-3 were actually created by Toy-Biz (positive on Waves 1-2, 50/50 on Wave 3). The announcement that HASBRO was taking over came in July of '06. They've had a lot of time to do character selection and design on new Waves.

The IronMan and the "IT" are completely new sculpts.

AH-HAH!!!! That's the real wild-card in the deck! My vote is on the Sentry...anytime, anywhere.

Pink, purple, what's the difference?

Ya know, I seem to remember a few years back that WIZARD picked the Surfer as the most powerful character in the Marvel Universe. Thor was # 3...behind Doctor Strange (!). Does anyone else remember this, or was my crack-pipe especially full today??

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. Manufacturers MOST CERTAINLY have pull with distributors. HASBRO, as a bigger company than TOY-BIZ with more high-profile licenses offers much more to the bottom line of a distributor than a smaller company like TOY-BIZ. In other words, distributors WANT their business because it's lucrative to move their product, and they'll compete with each other to get the manufacturer's business. It's that simple.