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"Gotham" Discussion Thread

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Wow, this is shaping up to be a train wreck of a half-ass written show. If the writer's put half as much effort into the dialogue and plot as they did token cameos that (outside of the Penguin, maybe) have no real purpose other than arbitrary, ill-timed fan-wanking, it might have been half-decent.

 

The premise and universe of a pre-Batman Gotham has a lot of possibilities, and I'm not opposed to said universe having younger versions of Batman's rogue's gallery within it, but tipping your hand on Catwoman, Poison Ivy, the Riddler, the Penguin and possibly even the Joker all in the pilot is just a really poor sense of timing.

 

Going from "case closed" on the Wayne murders to "frame job" to "must find truth" in the scope of 49 minutes is another example of bad writing and timing. You can't force the drama. You can't make a show good by overloading it with fan-fiction-esque cameos. It just makes the entire show seem contrived and amateurish.

 

Oh, and whoever casted Alfred should be fired. I'm all for reinterpreting characters or even reinventing them, but only to a certain degree. You might as well make Bruce Wayne a Duck Dynasty trust-fund baby complete with all the charm of a swamp-bred denizen.

Afried was more of a military guy in the golden age. He was also a villain

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Fans have known forever that Montoya plays for the other team. In all that time, no one's said "boo". What do you want to bet that THIS show is where you start to hear complaining about it, even though no one gave a hot damn before.

What's to complain about? Montoya started out as a character on a kid's cartoon show and was turned into a sexual deviant in the comics for quick "OMG!" value. Now she's on a low-rent Law and Order knock-off dressed as a comic spin-off, not because of her place in the over-all Bat-Mythos, but because a girl on girl scene is like crack to TV programmers.

 

If that doesn't bother you on at least some level, there's nothing we can say to help you.

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Fans have known forever that Montoya plays for the other team. In all that time, no one's said "boo". What do you want to bet that THIS show is where you start to hear complaining about it, even though no one gave a hot damn before.

What's to complain about? Montoya started out as a character on a kid's cartoon show and was turned into a sexual deviant in the comics for quick "OMG!" value. Now she's on a low-rent Law and Order knock-off dressed as a comic spin-off, not because of her place in the over-all Bat-Mythos, but because a girl on girl scene is like crack to TV programmers.

 

If that doesn't bother you on at least some level, there's nothing we can say to help you.

 

I know Montoya started out on the Animated Series and they correctly did not delve into her sexuality.

 

They did in the comics but I'm not sure being a lesbian and a sexual deviant are the same thing. At least not in my book. And this goes to my point...did you EVER care that comic Montoya was gay? Did anyone? Did it ever affect your Batman enjoyment? She was always that way. She's a third teer, no-powers background character. They didn't turn her gay for the show and the ratings like you're alluding to. She's a character in Gotham City and this is a show about characters in Gotham City.

 

Besides, you said you didn't watch it, so you'll be fine. :)

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Afried was more of a military guy in the golden age. He was also a villain

 

Yeah, but I still take issue with him speaking like an poor urban Londoner. That #$## makes my ears bleed - unless it's Vinnie Jones, who they may as well have just cast if they wanted to take Alfred in that direction. Take the joke as far as you can go.

 

It'd be like if Geoffrey from The Fresh Prince of Bel Air was a street-speaking Butler. It worked for Will Smith because it was a fish-out-of-water comedy. That was his whole character's thing, but you couldn't have Jazzy Jeff playing the butler. It just doesn't make sense.

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Here's my stance:

 

As a HUGE Batman fan, hearing of the concept, I was pissed, because I just want a flat out Batman TV show. I agree wholeheartedly with the original post in that you can get seasons out of a show centered on the actual Batman because the mythos is so vast. Before the news of this show came out, I actually got so angry after trying to watch Arrow, when his supporting cast was his driver, his old mom, his bratty kid sister, people who really mean nothing to ME, I don't know if they mean anything to an actual Arrow fan, and why go through all this C-list version of a vigilante show, when you have Batman whose main characters are essentially ALL A-List, and identifiable by anyone who has bought a movie ticket in the last 20 years? EVERYONE knows Gordon, Alfred, Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon... every villain Batman ever fought thanks to all the cartoons that have been done in the last 20 years also. So anyway, I was so mad at Arrow for existing on TV, that I started outlining my own "GOTHAM" series, and actually got (in my opinion anyway, since I wrote it, LOL) a good, strong, structured 10 seasons out of the damn thing. Realizing after the fact that Smallville ran for 10 seasons, I found a way to tie both shows together in the same universe by doing a World's Finest arc for 3 episodes, using the Cataclysm/No Man's Land arc to introduce Lex Luthor and then Clark and Lois to the Gotham landscape.

 

If anyone's interested, I might just start posting my season-by-season ideas for my own Gotham here on this board.

 

That being said about my feelings for the idea of the show, after watching episode one, here's my stance on the delivered product:

 

Overall, I was entertained by the first episode. Partly because ANY show involving Batman characters will engage me and I like the idea of watching characters evolve into the villains over a slow period of time rather than in one-episode origin stories (like I did in many of the episodes I wrote for MY "GOTHAM"). When most of your main contract cast is the villains, it makes sense that you can watch them all grow and evolve over seasons. In my version, the main cast was Batman and support staff, so the villains were more one-shots and self-contained stories devoted entirely to them and their plot and journey within that episode.

 

I too expected some kind of ethnicity swap to "ethnicize" the main cast, and they predictably did it with Essen, who is the most minor of the supporting characters and would likely cause the least backlash. Who the heck cares about Sarah Essen? You still have Crispus Allen as a Black man, Montoya as a Latina, and she doubles down as an LGBT representative for that diversity quotient (I'm not going to engage the offensive sexual deviant comment from earlier).

 

I didn't feel the villains were too heavy-handed. Penguin has the clear commitment from the writers and I think that works, , since he likes to work both sides of the law to his advantage and should be a layered, complicated character (though he seems a bit more bloodthirsty than I am comfortable with). Selina Kyle is also tied deeply into what Bruce Wayne's story will be, despite not having any lines in episode one. Beyond that, Riddler and Ivy were glorified cameos but they can wait for further development. I like the idea of potential Jokers making cameos throughout and leaving us wondering which one might turn into THE Joker, and possibly never answering that question. SUCH a clever idea! Now I'll be mad if that doesn't happen.

 

Bullock is a fine anti-hero and antagonist to Gordon, and Donal Logue executed the character sufficiently, in my opinion.

 

I don't mind them toughening Alfred up that much and it's kind of necessary to add long-term viability to his character as a scrapper if need be. We also saw very little of him, so we might still get more of his upper-crust side as they unfold his character over the series.

 

Carmine Falcone felt like a very strong and commanding presence, and his short appearance definitely left me eager to see more of the character.

 

Fish Mooney was my biggest question mark hanging over this show, but I like the character as she's been revealed so far. Jada Pinkett Smith is electric to me in this role, and another welcome bit of diversity to a very Anglo mythos. She was equally sexy, sultry, dangerous, entertaining, threatening, unpredictable... She covered a lot of ground in episode one and I'm eager to see what impact she has on the series since there's no comic book precedent to her character. Loved her treatment of Oswald throughout. Loved her throwing chairs at people and then straightening her wig. Laughed out loud. She also reminded me in moments of the Eartha Kitt Catwoman of 1966 Batman. She's actually my favorite to watch because she IS a blank slate, though I'm sure that's pandering to the producers who are revamping the universe and doing THIS version of a Batman show because they didn't want a "boring retread" of anything we've seen before. I'm a contradiction, I guess. But Jada/Fish is lightning in a bottle for me. And I also like the idea of "Fish" Mooney tying into "Penguin" in a mafia world where we eventually see other characters like Tobias WHALE and the Great White Shark. Every mobster in Post-Super-Villain Gotham has the aquatic theme and Fish Mooney fits right into that grand scheme.

 

Barbara Kean having a past with Montoya took me by surprise, but I guess it's one of those dots that the writers needed to connect to have an intertwined canvas when working with a rather loosely/thinly connected set of B-Level characters. Barbara Kean has never been seen before in live action, and everything I've read about her doesn't even represent her much in the comics, so this could be a workable extra reason why she and Gordon don't work out that we just never were privy to. But I'm hoping she'll be able to give birth to Barbara Gordon (and James Jr.?) before she skips town because she wasn't honest with Gordon about her past with Montoya or because she couldn't come to grips with her own sexual identity.

 

My main gripe with the series is the continuity concern I have with Bruce Wayne being 20 years younger than all these characters when I viewed a lot of them as contemporaries before. Montoya has 20 years on Batman?! Riddler does too? Penguin and Joker I viewed as older, but a lot of this doesn't line up and I also feel like even Catwoman is playing as a bit too old for Bruce Wayne. That's the most disturbing thing to me, aside from not having an actual show about BATMAN.

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Yeah!

 

Second episode is holing up pretty well. I liked the missing street kids plot.

 

We got more of Selina in this episode and she's portrayed pretty well so far. Conning that cop to get to talk to Gordon was a pretty good "Catwoman" move (not to mention scratching out a thug's eyeballs). That actress is actually a lot younger than I thought she would be which is a good thing. The closer to Bruce's age, the better.

 

Gordon and Bullock showing more good chemistry in this episode. "O.C." guy is proving to be a capable leading man, he holds your attention.

 

Bruce showing his altruistic side with regards to those kids was a nice touch. It's an important personality trait of the character.

 

Penguin is proving more interesting with every bit of screen time he gets. I'm betting he kills Fish Mooney eventually. Maybe even by season's end.

 

Next week will mark the beginning of DC's big three night extravaganza: Gotham Monday, Flash Tuesday, Arrow Wednesday. Looking forward to it!!!

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Visually, Gotham looked great, just like the city should look, IMO. As a fan of Nolan's Batman, one thing I thought could be improved on is the fact that Chicago is NOT Gotham City.

 

Chicago has Gotham's seedy politics, corrupt figureheads, and more murder than you can shake a stick at. Other than a strong artistic difference, its perfect.

 

 

But I DO like how every character in this show is saying "Falcone" like ice cream cone and not Falcon-ee...yes, that's old Italian pronunciation, but it never sounded right coming out of the likes of ,say, Katie Holmes....shudder....

 

Do they do Raysh or Raaz Al Ghul on Arrow? I forget, but the new season should clarify.

 

 

Watched the second episode. Much better than the pilot, and actually quite engaging.

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Do they do Raysh or Raaz Al Ghul on Arrow? I forget, but the new season should clarify.

 

 

I think it was Raysh in The Animated Series and Raaz in the Nolan Batmans and in Arrow. I really don't care which way they pronounce it. Same with Falcone.

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i'm going to have to watch this. i keep missing it, i wonder if it's on demand...

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i'm going to have to watch this. i keep missing it, i wonder if it's on demand...

 

It is on demand. Not sure who your cable provider is, but on Time Warner Cable they have it on the Primetime On Demand channel under the Fox tab.

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Cool episode. I was not expecting Venom to come into play this soon. Then ending with that Wayne Corp lady tailing Gordon and Bullock seems like a good set up for future plot lines. I'm also liking the subplot with the brewing mob war. Next weeks ep looks good too.

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Cool episode. I was not expecting Venom to come into play this soon. Then ending with that Wayne Corp lady tailing Gordon and Bullock seems like a good set up for future plot lines. I'm also liking the subplot with the brewing mob war. Next weeks ep looks good too.

I agree...one of the best episodes so far.

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love the softening of Alfred this week...he's got a subtle but great lil character arch going

 

As good as the pieces are, the Gordon/Bullock on the beat is the weakest part of the show. The characters/performances are there, but there's just so much else going on that is far more interesting. It's a shame, as what seemed to be the focal point of the show's original concept is now getting lost in the shuffle.

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Hope,it doesn't get cancelled, its in 4th spot in the tv ratings.....can't believe batman was overpowered by 4 nerds. Lol!

 

 

They ordered more episodes to be made

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IMO, this show is holding its own against full-on costumed heroes Arrow and Flash.

 

I noticed that the writer of this episode was Ben Edlund.......the creator of The Tick???? Neat.

 

Tonight's episode was another winner. The front burner story with Bullock and Gordon was interesting, I didn't see the the twist with the therapist coming and Bullock's confrontation with her was great, really liked seeing more of Nigma (sniffing the records worker's hair was a great, weird touch), Penguin was good as always and the ending left you wanting more. Yep, good stuff.

 

Big Bang is moving to Thursdays. Nerds no longer have to choose.

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