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Ideas for the lantern corps in DCUC


Cyber Bishop
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<sigh>

 

Yeaaaa, YOUR tastes always take precedence in a discussion where there's no accounting for taste. :rolleyes:

 

You missed the most important point.

 

Whereas prior to '86, you could point to Byrne's FIVE years on the Fantastic Four or Dick Dillin's TEN years on Justice League of America, after 86 all you could dig up as examples of this high quality art that draws rings around the Old Skool masters is a four issue mini-series and a single Bruce Timm story. Even if I gave you Hughs and Davis, all we'd be looking at are a few covers and arcs here and there. It's impossible to deny that notable contemporary comics are spotty and that would be a generous description.

 

No, I didn't miss it.

The industry CHANGED after the mid-80's. Long runs on comics well........you've got Dave Sims and Cerebus, and Eric Larson on Savage Dragon--and Sim has wrapped his book.

Comics simply do not sell well enough to justify long runs for a creative team--unless they are self-published. That is marketing speaking.

 

Comics today take longer to produce because the production values are more involved. That the main reason creative teams rotate these days.

 

Sure, in the old days, artists would crank out the work on a monthly schedule--but the work was also a great deal more simplified in both rendering and lay-out. Its not like that today, and comic readers demand the current production values. The graphically simpler books just do not sell as well--the conceit readers have is that if there is a lot of noodling on the page, it equates to quality in their minds.

And hey, its THEIR dollars speaking when it comes to purchasing those books.

 

So , yea artists take longer these days........bless 'em.

I'd rather have the working schedule today, not the deadlines of yesterday.....I know of too many of the old guard that did not find those long hours appealing at all.

Frankly, as a cartoonist today, I WANT to spend time with my family, rather than spend it at the drawing board. A lot of my contemporaries and peers think the same way.

Taking your time means several things--the work looks better, its more personal and tends to be more polished--and it tends to sell better, a plus in a increasingly depressed (and depressing) sales market.

 

Seriously, the professional consensus is that if they brought back the stories, art, look, feel, texture and production values of comics 30 years ago, they would NOT sell any better than they would today....they would sell worse. That is why the medium has evolved.

The John Byrne's and Dick Dillin's of their day had their time in the sun, and the sun set on them.

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Not so sound arrogant or condescending, but I know quite a bit about art, comic books, graphics, etc. I just don't need to list my credentials to back up my comments that stand well enough on their own.

 

No, you do.

 

Because I'm calling you and your comments into question on it. If you want to call me and mine into question, I'll return it right back atcha. @smilepunch@

 

I can back up my credentials on this, unlike so very many people. I'm not a poseur, or a wannabe- I am one of the rare few who have DONE this stuff professionally, not just consumed it.

I'm not just another voice than can point at something and say they like or dislike it....I work in the realm of WHY they like it.

I am, and have been an enabler, and can prove it.

If that doesn't say someone knows what they are yakkin' about, then nothing does.

 

 

Now its your turn.........spotlight is on you.

Show us these good comics.

Tell us how good comics are produced.

 

 

This is quite a bit of rosy revisionism regarding Quesada's tenure.

 

The house is on fire and Quesada's solution is to keep playing with matches. You seem to forgive him because the house hasn't burned to the ground yet. "Who cares that the house is on fire? It's still standing! See? He must be doing something right!"

 

 

Ah yea, I got ya pegged now.

Hey, if he was tearing the place down......why keep him on the job for 10 years? He answers to folks over him, stockholders........if they are not happy, if product isn't moving under his tenure.......well, they toss ya out the door. They did that for FAR less than that with Jim Shooter, LOL.

This isn't a subjective thing here, Quesada has kept the comics publishing division afloat for a decade, he was hired to the post because he took a couple of Marvel Knights books that nobody cared about and made them SELL.

 

They could have stuck with Bob Harras after all......his tenure saw Marvel go into bankruptcy, LOL!

 

If a guy's money, he's money........and Quesada has been money in the editorial slot for a good long time now.

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The industry CHANGED after the mid-80's. Long runs on comics well........you've got Dave Sims and Cerebus, and Eric Larson on Savage Dragon--and Sim has wrapped his book.

Comics simply do not sell well enough to justify long runs for a creative team--unless they are self-published. That is marketing speaking.

 

 

Yes. The industry DID change after the mid-80's. It collapsed creatively. As for sales, they stopped selling well enough in large part due to this creative collapse.

 

 

Comics today take longer to produce because the production values are more involved. That the main reason creative teams rotate these days.

 

 

Absolutely incorrect on both counts. Given the digital technology available today, comics should be easier and more efficient to produce. It's the creative teams involved that drag their heels and the editors who refuse to press them. "Hey! I can't push J. Michael! He might get mad and quit!" As for the main reason creative teams rotate, you actually have two. First, all comics are being geared towards trade paperbacks. The six issue story arc is ideal for this package. It's not ideal from a story-telling perspective but it is good for cranking out trades. Secondly, being able to announce a new creative team every six months gets you a little attention from Newsarama every six months.

 

 

Sure, in the old days, artists would crank out the work on a monthly schedule--but the work was also a great deal more simplified in both rendering and lay-out. Its not like that today, and comic readers demand the current production values. The graphically simpler books just do not sell as well--the conceit readers have is that if there is a lot of noodling on the page, it equates to quality in their minds.

And hey, its THEIR dollars speaking when it comes to purchasing those books.

 

Their dollars ain't been saying much! Look at the sales now and compare them to the way books sold prior to '86... and please! Don't hand me the "internet and video games" excuse. If the quality were there... and the availability (which is a whole other issue)... then the readership would be there as well. After '86, the comics industry adopted practices that could not be better designed for effectively driving readers away and insuring that new readers would never find them or want to. How in the World can anyone deny this?

 

 

So , yea artists take longer these days........bless 'em.

I'd rather have the working schedule today, not the deadlines of yesterday.....I know of too many of the old guard that did not find those long hours appealing at all.

Frankly, as a cartoonist today, I WANT to spend time with my family, rather than spend it at the drawing board. A lot of my contemporaries and peers think the same way.

Taking your time means several things--the work looks better, its more personal and tends to be more polished--and it tends to sell better, a plus in a increasingly depressed (and depressing) sales market.

 

 

Artists have become lazy and too well paid. They have little incentive to maintain a steady output of work and this has affected the market. There have been several books where the interest has been utterly squashed because of the incredible gaps in between issues. Has the Twelve wrapped up? You really don't need to answer because I really stopped caring. "Here's the latest Terry Dodson book, Kids! You want another? Well come back next year for the next issue!"

 

 

The John Byrne's and Dick Dillin's of their day had their time in the sun, and the sun set on them.

 

 

The sun is setting on the entire industry... and worst of all, they did it to themselves!

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Not so sound arrogant or condescending, but I know quite a bit about art, comic books, graphics, etc. I just don't need to list my credentials to back up my comments that stand well enough on their own.

 

No, you do.

 

Because I'm calling you and your comments into question on it. If you want to call me and mine into question, I'll return it right back atcha. @smilepunch@

 

I can back up my credentials on this, unlike so very many people. I'm not a poseur, or a wannabe- I am one of the rare few who have DONE this stuff professionally, not just consumed it.

I'm not just another voice than can point at something and say they like or dislike it....I work in the realm of WHY they like it.

I am, and have been an enabler, and can prove it.

If that doesn't say someone knows what they are yakkin' about, then nothing does.

 

 

Meaningless.

 

You've been throwing around your credentials as the Second Coming left and right but you couldn't be more wrong in your statements. "1 + 1 = 3! You know why? Because I've been a mathematician for twenty-five years and I've started math schools and I cured cancer!"

 

That's great for you, but 1 +1 still = 2!

 

 

 

Hey, if he was tearing the place down......why keep him on the job for 10 years? He answers to folks over him, stockholders........if they are not happy, if product isn't moving under his tenure.......well, they toss ya out the door. They did that for FAR less than that with Jim Shooter, LOL.

This isn't a subjective thing here, Quesada has kept the comics publishing division afloat for a decade, he was hired to the post because he took a couple of Marvel Knights books that nobody cared about and made them SELL.

 

They could have stuck with Bob Harras after all......his tenure saw Marvel go into bankruptcy, LOL!

 

If a guy's money, he's money........and Quesada has been money in the editorial slot for a good long time now.

 

 

In the today's market, as sales have deteriorated, so have the standards of what constitutes acceptable sales. Comics have stopped being money-makers. They're copyright holders keeping properties active while movie deals and merchandising are harvested around them. Quesada doesn't do a good job. He does an geed enough job... from his bosses' perspectives. Creatively however... yeesh!

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LOL

 

Like the Fantasy Battle threads this has gone waaaaaay off topic

 

All I have to say on topic is that I like the Blackest Night line coming from DC Direct.In my Comic store they are cheaper then any of the big stores that charge around $17 for them

 

Yikes.. Yeah I see how it has gone off topic.. I feel bad as that was not my intention.. I only wanted to discuss DCUC and Blackest Night Lantern corps..

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Whatever happened to liking something just because it entertained me? I don't need sizable credentials or merit-able backups just to like a funny book. And a lot of insults being thrust about - shoving people into categories of drooling fanboys and people with poor taste in comics. I didn't start reading comics till the late 80's and early 90's purely due to my age. Maybe I missed the 'hay-day' of true comic books, and I'm just a clueless slack-jawed yokel that doesn't know any better. Or maybe I have my own opinion and wits about me and I like what I like.

 

Hobbies are supposed to entertain, enthrall, and remove one from the monotonous stress of daily life and the boring 'real world.' I don't need to assert my comic-knowledge-peen. If a book catches my attention and holds it - it's a good book. If it entertains me and keeps me reading - it's a good book. I don't pound a stake through the heart of comics after a certain year - the industry is still going and it's still doing the same thing it has for the better part of twenty years. It still entertains me.

 

The back-handed insults (whether intentional or not) sting ever-so-slightly. If you don't enjoy something - that's fine. Just don't ask for it to be over with because in your *aherm* humble opinion it is trash. And don't look down upon others who enjoy the arts and stories that comes from the creative minds of people you don't like.

 

I, for one, have always liked Liefeld's art (to make a simple example.) It doesn't make me uneducated, a slack-jawed fanboy, or anyone of poor taste. It purely means I like it.

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Arrow wrote:

 

Feel free to enlighten us as to what good comics are then.

 

Oh please let me handle this one!

 

Stan Lee/Jack Kirby on J.I.M./Thor

Stan Lee/Steve Ditko on Spiderman

Stan Lee/John Romita on Spiderman

Stan Lee/Jack Kirby on Fantastic Four

Gerry Conway/John Buscema on Thor

Steve Englehart/George Perez on Avengers

Gerry Conway/George Perez on Avengers

Jim Shooter/George Perez on Avengers

Steve Englehart/Frank Brunner on Dr. Strange

Steve Englehart/Gene Colan on Dr. Strange

Stan Lee/Steve Ditko on Dr. Strange

Steve Engelhart/Marshal Rogers on Batman (Detective Comics)

Gerry Conway/Wally Wood on All Star Comics

Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams on Batman

Len Wein/Jim Aparo on Detective Comics

John Broome/Gil Kane on Green Lantern

Jack Kirby on New Gods

 

I can go on and on with this list. There are so many I left out. Note that some of those runs lasted for a decade or more! Avengers, FF, Spidey...they all had solid decade-long runs of top notch quality. Runs of 50, 75 issues of high quality were not uncommon.

 

Arrow wrote:

 

The industry CHANGED after the mid-80's. Long runs on comics well........you've got Dave Sims and Cerebus, and Eric Larson on Savage Dragon--and Sim has wrapped his book.

Comics simply do not sell well enough to justify long runs for a creative team--unless they are self-published. That is marketing speaking.

 

Nonsense. Quality dropped and they started abusing the characters, so readers stopped reading. Funny how companies will never take responsibility when they fail, always blaming the consumer.

 

I'd rather have the working schedule today, not the deadlines of yesterday.....I know of too many of the old guard that did not find those long hours appealing at all. Frankly, as a cartoonist today, I WANT to spend time with my family, rather than spend it at the drawing board. A lot of my contemporaries and peers think the same way.

 

A lazy work ethic if you ask me, and proof that today's artists are not up to par. The pros of the past put in the hours and cranked out the quality. Artists these days do neither.

 

The John Byrne's and Dick Dillin's of their day had their time in the sun, and the sun set on them.

 

The sun has set on the entire industry, and an era of high quality. Now we have the Era of Crap.

 

I can back up my credentials on this, unlike so very many people. I'm not a poseur, or a wannabe- I am one of the rare few who have DONE this stuff professionally, not just consumed it.

 

That doesn't magically give you any more relevant an opinion than anyone else, nor does it to anything to bolster your severely lacking arguments.

 

I'm not just another voice than can point at something and say they like or dislike it....I work in the realm of WHY they like it.

 

Strange. I've managed to work very well in the realm of WHY I like or don't like something and have given excruciating detail as to why. And guess what? I managed that without being an industry insider! Imagine that!

 

If that doesn't say someone knows what they are yakkin' about, then nothing does.

 

Having a job in an industry does not make you knowledgeable. I know plenty of doctors who are nothing more than whores for the drug companies and know nothing about healing. I deal with then on a daily basis. So no, your job does not make your opinion higher than others', nor does it fix your lack of logic or common sense on these debates.

 

Show us these good comics.

 

Done.

 

This isn't a subjective thing here, Quesada has kept the comics publishing division afloat for a decade, he was hired to the post because he took a couple of Marvel Knights books that nobody cared about and made them SELL.

 

Anyone can peddle crap to audiences who don't know better. It's why McDonald's is so successful. Doesn't mean Marvel still has quality.

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CapnJeffro wrote:

 

Hobbies are supposed to entertain, enthrall, and remove one from the monotonous stress of daily life and the boring 'real world.' I don't need to assert my comic-knowledge-peen. If a book catches my attention and holds it - it's a good book. If it entertains me and keeps me reading - it's a good book. I don't pound a stake through the heart of comics after a certain year - the industry is still going and it's still doing the same thing it has for the better part of twenty years. It still entertains me.

 

The back-handed insults (whether intentional or not) sting ever-so-slightly. If you don't enjoy something - that's fine. Just don't ask for it to be over with because in your *aherm* humble opinion it is trash. And don't look down upon others who enjoy the arts and stories that comes from the creative minds of people you don't like.

 

It's not about insulting someone's opinion. But here is my analogy. If I grew up eating nothing but high quality gourmet dinners, and someone else grew up eating nothing but McDonald's fast food, I have a higher standard of taste and I have a better developed sense of taste. The person who grew up on McDonald's is eating crap. He may enjoy it, he may like it, but to someone who grew up in truly high quality, nutritious food, McDonald's is crap. And objectively, we can look at freshness, the vitamin/mineral content, and the overall quality and nutritional value of the food and accurately say that McDonald's is crap compared to what I've been eating.

 

Another analogy. I'm a chocoholic. Love chocolate, could live on it exclusively. I can grab a bar of chocolate, take a bite, and tell you whether it's using the highest quality criolla cacao bean or the lowest quality forestero cacao bean. I can tell you whether the vanilla is real or whether it's artificial vanillin. I can tell you which has a higher cocoa butter content and describe the subtle tastes of each bar. I can tell you which company made the bar even if I don't see the wrapper. Someone who comes along and who has only eaten Hershey's is, both in my opinion and in reality, eating crappy chocolate. It's low-quality, poorly produced chocolate. We can objectively measure that. It's using poor quality beans, artificial flavors, cheap ingredients, and not the finest conching methods. So I call it crap, and it is indeed crap. Just because that guy hasn't developed a sense of taste and enjoys the crap he's eating does not mean it isn't low-quality crap. He may be happy to pay for his low-quality crap, but to me it's not worth bothering with because I have had infinitely better chocolate.

 

Call it being a connoisseur, call it being snooty or arrogant, it doesn't matter. It's reality. It's a fact. It's real. So when I condemn modern drooling fanboys for liking the crap that's being peddled to them, it's only because I know it's crap, I have grown up on the finest comics ever done (same as chocolates) and I know the difference. I can take a comic and point out pacing, storytelling, shading, proportion, flow, and other quality issues and say "These old comics are great because x/y/z and these modern comics suck because they lack x/y/z" where x/y/z are the basic ingredients of good art and good storytelling.

 

Ignorance of quality does not make a person's opinion valid.And pointing out that ignorance does not make it an insult.

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Wheeljack35 wrote:

 

By a mile and a half

 

Give or take. Were we talking about Green Lantern? ;)

 

I'm not thrilled about the idea of multi-colored lanterns, but it would be cool to have a yellow lantern corp run by Sinestro.

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Stan Lee/Jack Kirby on J.I.M./Thor

Stan Lee/Steve Ditko on Spiderman

Stan Lee/John Romita on Spiderman

Stan Lee/Jack Kirby on Fantastic Four

Gerry Conway/John Buscema on Thor

Steve Englehart/George Perez on Avengers

Gerry Conway/George Perez on Avengers

Jim Shooter/George Perez on Avengers

Steve Englehart/Frank Brunner on Dr. Strange

Steve Englehart/Gene Colan on Dr. Strange

Stan Lee/Steve Ditko on Dr. Strange

Steve Engelhart/Marshal Rogers on Batman (Detective Comics)

Gerry Conway/Wally Wood on All Star Comics

Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams on Batman

Len Wein/Jim Aparo on Detective Comics

John Broome/Gil Kane on Green Lantern

Jack Kirby on New Gods

 

 

These are some of the GREATEST runs in the history of the comic book publishing and with comics rapidly heading towards their twilight, these may well remain some of the greatest comic books EVER. I just wanted to add that all of these ...which as Xorr pointed out include some decade long runs... were published on a regular basis. While Terry Dodson needed two years to put out four issues of Wonder Woman, Jack Kirby published TEN consecutive uninterrupted years of the FF... possibly the single greatest run in all of comics... without missing an issue or a single notable delay!

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Yeah, Kirby was King in every sense of the word! Look at the prolific body of work he did, and the quality as well. No one touches him. But even the other greats from back then had an impressive body of work...Kane, Rogers, Wrightson, Romita, etc. It never ceases to amaze me that I can grab my box of Thor or FF or Spiderman comics and read 100 issues or more in a row and they're all consistently top-notch. Then to think of the span of time it took to create all that...just amazing!

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Ignorance of quality does not make a person's opinion valid.And pointing out that ignorance does not make it an insult.

 

You like to freely toss out how ignorant and drooling the followers of modern comics are. Such a haughty and high-horse mentality when it comes to an enjoyable hobby. I am not bereft of taste, but I'm also not here to try and convince you of this. Just because I didn't start reading comics till the late 80's and early 90's doesn't mean I haven't read up on the vast collective of the 4-color funny books. And it would be quite presumptuous to assume such.

 

You see it as high class or white trash. With no middle ground. Such a black and white mentality makes it hard to look outside of one's own narcissism. Obviously we must have some commonalities. We are on the same board dealing with the same hobby that the majority of grown adults don't partake in.

 

Instead of fast food or gourmet - why not in terms of beer? There are is a vast amount of different types of beer. All are tasty and everyone has a right to their choice. Does a stout drinker have a more refined palate than someone who enjoys a lager or a cider? I wouldn't say so. It's merely a difference in taste - not a lack there of.

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CapnJeffro wrote:

 

You like to freely toss out how ignorant and drooling the followers of modern comics are.

 

Yes, because unfortunately, so many of them are.

 

Such a haughty and high-horse mentality when it comes to an enjoyable hobby. I am not bereft of taste, but I'm also not here to try and convince you of this. Just because I didn't start reading comics till the late 80's and early 90's doesn't mean I haven't read up on the vast collective of the 4-color funny books. And it would be quite presumptuous to assume such.

 

Which is why I never assume things. ;)

 

It's not haughty or high horse. I'm not saying it makes me a better person than them or that their enjoyment of their hobby is not legitimate. They're free to enjoy crap, and I can respect that. I have friends who eat Hershey's and Dove chocolate and think they know chocolate. :rolleyes: But they're free to do that. It does not, however, mean they know squat about chocolate or that they have any clue as to what a good chocolate is all about.

 

You see it as high class or white trash. With no middle ground. Such a black and white mentality makes it hard to look outside of one's own narcissism. Obviously we must have some commonalities. We are on the same board dealing with the same hobby that the majority of grown adults don't partake in.

 

That's true. However, there is a class structure to every group. In any demographic, there will be those of higher taste, higher learning, higher understanding, than the rest. Which is fine, as long as neither confuses the other for what it isn't. In other words, if I understand what makes a fine chocolate and all you know is Hershey's, don't presume to tell me how fine Hershey's is, then feel offended when I call it low class crap, because it is.

 

Instead of fast food or gourmet - why not in terms of beer? There are is a vast amount of different types of beer. All are tasty and everyone has a right to their choice. Does a stout drinker have a more refined palate than someone who enjoys a lager or a cider? I wouldn't say so. It's merely a difference in taste - not a lack there of.

 

Why not in terms of beer? Because it's not a fitting analogy to the discussion, that's why. At least, not the way you phrased the analogy. No, a stout drinker does not necessarily have a more refined palate than someone who enjoys a lager or cider, just as a superhero comic (Marvel/DC) fan is no better than a horror comic (EC) fan. They simply have different tastes. However...someone who's been drinking the world's finest beers and who understands what makes a great beer can say to the guy who has only drunk Bud Light that his beer is crap, because he knows his beer. It doesn't mean the Bud Light guy shouldn't or can't enjoy his cheap Bud Light, it just means his opinion means nothing because he is ignorant about beer. And by ignorant, I mean that in its correct definition of "lacking wisdom or knowledge of the facts of the matter", not the improper use of the word as a synonym for "stupid". The beer connoisseur knows what quality is, he knows what makes a good beer. And when he calls Bud Light crap, he knows what he's talking about. And when he calls Westmalle Dubbel or Rodenbach Gran Cru a great beer, he knows what he's talking about and he's right.

 

Likewise, growing up on the classics, growing up on comics done by the masters, growing up learning what pacing, storytelling, flow, and other apsects of writing and art are, enables one to objectively point out what is quality and what is crap. It's just how the world works.

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It's not haughty or high horse. I'm not saying it makes me a better person than them or that their enjoyment of their hobby is not legitimate. They're free to enjoy crap, and I can respect that. I have friends who eat Hershey's and Dove chocolate and think they know chocolate. But they're free to do that. It does not, however, mean they know squat about chocolate or that they have any clue as to what a good chocolate is all about.

 

Yes, absolutely. It is not haughty NOR high horse. You simply just know better. My apologies for confusing the two.

 

That's true. However, there is a class structure to every group. In any demographic, there will be those of higher taste, higher learning, higher understanding, than the rest. Which is fine, as long as neither confuses the other for what it isn't. In other words, if I understand what makes a fine chocolate and all you know is Hershey's, don't presume to tell me how fine Hershey's is, then feel offended when I call it low class crap, because it is.

 

Oh, I'm not offended because you are calling it low class. It is your phrasing and constant talk (this and other topics) of your high class learning and knowledge. How it is like talking to ants. How you shall speak slowly and simplistically as possible for others to understand. I'm just confused as to why you come to a board where others talk about like minded hobbies, but it seems much of what you say is done with an air of superiority and the unwaivering resolve of no one else being right in their thoughts as well.

 

It's just how the world works.

He has spoken. So let it be written.

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Anyways...back on topic.

 

What has the possibility of being made by mixing parts and repaints:

 

Sinestro Corps Amon Sur (repaint Abin Sur)

Sinestro Corps Lyssa Drax ( Karu Sil body with a Starfire head & hair)

Sinestro Corps Scarecrow

Green Lantern Tomar Tu

Blue Lantern Flash

Orange Lantern Luthor

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