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Who is stronger Superman or Captain Marvel


Superpowers1980

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much as i hate superman ill go with superman cus when CM is a kid at the end of the day he'll slaughter him!

Oh yeah, that's what this topic was about.

 

Either way, Thor's the best, and Superman's the worst.

 

Marvel Legends will always be better than DC Universe Classics.

 

Marvel will always have better videogames than DC.

 

Marvel's movies will always be better than DC's.

 

No team can defeat the TMNT.

 

I think I've covered all my fanboy bases.

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Marvel ruined their books...like who even reads Spiderman anymore, or the crappy X-Men books....they are like Dawson's Creek but with superheroes (Teen level drama)

 

 

Well, if you go by the monthly sales figures, and here's the latest ones:

http://acomicbookblog.com/featured/january-2010-comic-book-sales-figures/

Spiderman is #6 at 76,000+ copies, and Xmen is #10 at 65,000+ copies. The top selling book, SIEGE, only sold 108,000 copies--that out of 300 different titles shipped.

Marvel titles make up 6 of the top ten selling books last month, so someone is certainly reading them.

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Whew! You'd have to pay me to read through this thread now! And even then, I don't think I'd agree to it! It's become as convoluted as modern comics continuitybiggrin.gif

 

And oh yes, while I'm thinking about it... Hulk smash! Just thought I'd throw that out therewink.gif

 

 

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Which is why I only consider what was written back when writers actually had writing skills, when editors forced continuity to remain honored, where characters were respected as established. At least most of the time. In my eyes, comics from the 60's and 70's are totally unrelated to comics from the 90's and beyond. They have similarly named characters, but they're not the same characters at all.

 

Another reason why Darkside is called "Jobberside" now Xorr?! He's not exactly the enemy of New Genesis like he used to be is he? hahahaha

 

"Whew! You'd have to pay me to read through this thread now! And even then, I don't think I'd agree to it! It's become as convoluted as modern comics continuitybiggrin.gif"

 

Yeah, it's gotten silly. Everyone will have their favorites and they will be their favorites no matter what anyone says - so I say God bless! ;)

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much as i hate superman ill go with superman cus when CM is a kid at the end of the day he'll slaughter him!

 

 

Marvel will always have better videogames than DC.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Blasphemy!

 

Batman Arkham Asylum makes ALL THE other superhero games look like #$##!

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Arrow wrote:

 

Spiderman is #6 at 76,000+ copies, and Xmen is #10 at 65,000+ copies. The top selling book, SIEGE, only sold 108,000 copies--that out of 300 different titles shipped.

Marvel titles make up 6 of the top ten selling books last month, so someone is certainly reading them.

 

Bah! In my day, distribution numbers that low meant cancellation of a title! In 1969 Superman was selling over 500,000 copies, Batman was selling 355,000 copies, Spider Man came in at 372,000 copies. In the 70's, if a comic couldn't generate at least 100,000 issues sold, it was a flop and was cancelled. In the 40's and 50's, some comic titles sold millions of copies a month.

 

76,000 copies? Ha! That title wouldn't have made it to issue #2.

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Arrow wrote:

 

Spiderman is #6 at 76,000+ copies, and Xmen is #10 at 65,000+ copies. The top selling book, SIEGE, only sold 108,000 copies--that out of 300 different titles shipped.

Marvel titles make up 6 of the top ten selling books last month, so someone is certainly reading them.

 

Bah! In my day, distribution numbers that low meant cancellation of a title! In 1969 Superman was selling over 500,000 copies, Batman was selling 355,000 copies, Spider Man came in at 372,000 copies. In the 70's, if a comic couldn't generate at least 100,000 issues sold, it was a flop and was cancelled. In the 40's and 50's, some comic titles sold millions of copies a month.

 

76,000 copies? Ha! That title wouldn't have made it to issue #2.

That's right. The readership for comics has steadily declined since the 1990's. You can thank two things: the speculator crash, and video games--the latter being the more symptomatic of the trend. And not Superman, Captain Marvel, Hulk, Thor or anyone for that matter has been able to reverse it. So something out there is still clearly "stronger" than all of them. ;)

 

But this is a topic for another discussion and is off-topic here in this thread.

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Ok, let's try this again. You cannot base debates on things that talent-less writers write. Back in "the day" (ie the 60's and 70's), Marvel was very consistent (compared to DC at least) in their portrayal of characters. Thor and Hulk always fought to a standstill. Galactus was never manhandled by anyone. Eternity was beyond anyone's ability to mess with. All that changed when the industry tanked in the 80's and all the crap writers took over. I do not acknowledge anything they did from that point on, because the writing became juvenile, pathetic, uncreative, and inaccurate (completely out of continuity). Venom cannot touch Juggernaut. Spiderman cannot touch Firelord. That's just common sense. Bad writing does not negate common sense, nor does it negate established continuity or canon.

 

You seem to be hinging much of your argument on the principle of if you don't like a story it just doesn't count. And talking about "back in the day" of the 60s and 70s. The 60s is when the majority of Marvel characters popped up (in the 62-63 range.) So. By that logic 20 years (and that's being generous) out of 50 years is all that counts? You're writing off over half of Marvel continuity to suit your argument?

 

And I'm still hard pressed to figure out how common sense fits in with fictional characters, settings, and power sets that don't really exist. There is no common sense. You have to base everything off of what has actually been printed. Common sense falls into the category of fanboy speculation. I've been reading comics since the early 90's (I turn 30 this year) and don't see anything that I've read over almost two decades as being contrived, garbage, or worthless. I've enjoyed the hobby for a long time and don't plan on stopping any time soon.

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CapnJeffro wrote:

 

You seem to be hinging much of your argument on the principle of if you don't like a story it just doesn't count.

 

If that's all you got out of my argument, then you're either glossing over it and not paying attention or you've chosen to ignore it. It's a lot more complex than what you're attempting to distill it down to, but I don't have time today to go over it again, so please re-read my posts. There's a reason I respect what legends such as Kirby, Lee, or Englehart while referring to many modern day writers (such as Loeb) as "talentless hacks".

 

As for common sense, we certainly can apply that to comics. Superman has super strength. Batman does not. Batman cannot arm wrestle Superman and have any hope of winning. That's common sense. Comic writers used to use common sense all the time.

 

And yes, I'd say the first 25 years or so of Marvel Comics were worthy. After that it became hack writers and crap stories that had no continuity, no common sense, and no respect for character development. Just because something exists does not give it an inherent value.

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Well, I honestly cannot count the recent comics where Superman can defeat Darkseid or whatever. Again, bad writing is bad writing. I doubt that Jack Kirby would ever have had Superman beating Darkseid. Just because something has become warped doesn't make it accurate, that's how I look at it.

 

 

It's just bad writing and not in keeping with the character. It does indeed make sense. It's simple analysis of stated powers, continuity, and common sense and logic. We can't argue who is the coolest superhero or the most fun or whatever because that's subjective. But as for who is stronger, Character A or Character B, we have a huge database of information on each and can use logic, common sense, facts, and precedence to make a case.

 

Writers who make stupid changes to characters are not changing the character, they are abusing it.

 

 

Ok, let's try this again. You cannot base debates on things that talent-less writers write. Back in "the day" (ie the 60's and 70's), Marvel was very consistent (compared to DC at least) in their portrayal of characters. Thor and Hulk always fought to a standstill. Galactus was never manhandled by anyone. Eternity was beyond anyone's ability to mess with. All that changed when the industry tanked in the 80's and all the crap writers took over. I do not acknowledge anything they did from that point on, because the writing became juvenile, pathetic, uncreative, and inaccurate (completely out of continuity). Venom cannot touch Juggernaut. Spiderman cannot touch Firelord. That's just common sense. Bad writing does not negate common sense, nor does it negate established continuity or canon.

 

 

Which is why I only consider what was written back when writers actually had writing skills, when editors forced continuity to remain honored, where characters were respected as established. At least most of the time. In my eyes, comics from the 60's and 70's are totally unrelated to comics from the 90's and beyond. They have similarly named characters, but they're not the same characters at all.

 

 

If that's all you got out of my argument, then you're either glossing over it and not paying attention or you've chosen to ignore it. It's a lot more complex than what you're attempting to distill it down to, but I don't have time today to go over it again, so please re-read my posts. There's a reason I respect what legends such as Kirby, Lee, or Englehart while referring to many modern day writers (such as Loeb) as "talentless hacks".

 

As for common sense, we certainly can apply that to comics. Superman has super strength. Batman does not. Batman cannot arm wrestle Superman and have any hope of winning. That's common sense. Comic writers used to use common sense all the time.

 

And yes, I'd say the first 25 years or so of Marvel Comics were worthy. After that it became hack writers and crap stories that had no continuity, no common sense, and no respect for character development. Just because something exists does not give it an inherent value.

 

No glossing, not ignoring, and I was definitely paying attention. You constantly bring it back to the mantra "I didn't like it. It doesn't count." I'm not even trying to discount Thor beating Superman (would have sworn it was Captain Marvel at some point...) I'm just boggling at the disdain for 30 years of comics.

 

And I was never understand lugging around real world physics, common sense, and reasoning when dealing with Aliens, Nordic gods, billionaire playboys with a panache for crime fighting, and the ilk.

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To me there are limits on the Captain

 

One: If Clark can trick him into saying Shazam.. poof the fight is over

 

Or say Mary or Cap jr have no idea that the two are battling and shazam into the superbeings too save a person Caps looses most of hi power because he has to share and then Clark wins

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I would vote Captain Marvel for three reasons:

  1. He's my favorite.
  2. I hate Superman.
  3. Superman's Kryptonite, besides kryptonite, is magic.

Of course, the honest answer is whoever the writer or editor wants to win. Superman will always "beat" Captain Marvel because DC wants Superman to win. DC is still sore about Fawcett Comics out-selling National consistently through the 40's. That's why when they sat down and decided to have one contest for all the marbles ended the way it did. It happeend in some issue of Power of Shazam! Cap was arm-wrestling Supes and was winning until Mary and Jr. came to help him. They could feel he was exerting himself, and called on their portions of their shared power, effectively cutting his power to a third. Cap lost as soon as the rest of the Marvels arrived. That's right. Cap lost to Supes FOREVER in HIS OWN TITLE.

 

That's all I have to say about that.

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It depends on the writer. A writer who prefers Captain Marvel, would make him win whereas another writer would make SM the victor
To me there are limits on the Captain

 

One: If Clark can trick him into saying Shazam.. poof the fight is over

 

Or say Mary or Cap jr have no idea that the two are battling and shazam into the superbeings too save a person Caps looses most of hi power because he has to share and then Clark wins

Exactly!
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CapnJeffro wrote:

 

No glossing, not ignoring, and I was definitely paying attention. You constantly bring it back to the mantra "I didn't like it. It doesn't count."

 

The problem is, I never said I don't count it because I don't like it. No, I don't like it, and no I don't count it. But I never said that I don't count it merely because I don't like it. If anything, it would be more accurate to say I discount it, and therefore I don't like it.

 

I discount modern stuff because of several reasons which I have repeated several times...the stories are not true to the original design or intent of the character, the stories do not respect established norms for the character, the stories do not respect continuity, the stories change canon on a daily basis instead of going with what was established for decades. Writers these days are too wishy washy. One day this character is infinitely stronger, tomorrow it's someone else. There is no solidity or clearly designed hierarchy. It's all just a flavor of the month style thing where whoever is the favored character at the time is the strongest. And the changes to characters follow no logical pattern, no common sense, and essentially totally change the characters. So yes, I ignore it because it's just a sloppy mess of crap and not worth paying attention to. Today's writers are the talentless drooling fanboys who grew up on crap like Secret Wars. So of course they have no grounding in good storytelling.

 

Notice that nowhere did I say that I discount it because I don't like it. Modern writers suck, that's the bottom line. And since they cannot remain faithful to the characters, since they cannot stick to continuity, since they warp the characters into someone else on a regular basis, it's just not worth considering. How can you come to a decision on an issue if the facts of the matter keep changing on a regular basis? Clue...you can't.

 

I'm just boggling at the disdain for 30 years of comics

 

What's to be boggled about? Crap is crap. Just because it's been flung around for 30 years doesn't mean it isn't still crap. It's just crap that keep piling up.

 

And I was never understand lugging around real world physics, common sense, and reasoning when dealing with Aliens, Nordic gods, billionaire playboys with a panache for crime fighting, and the ilk.

 

There are two concepts you need to research regarding storytelling...suspension of disbelief and internal logic. This is where the modern comic writers violate the rules of writing.

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I'm not even trying to discount Thor beating Superman (would have sworn it was Captain Marvel at some point...)

 

Other people brought in Thor as a "stand-in" for Captain Marvel earlier on - we cried foul on that and that's what got us defending him.

 

As to, "modern day writers (such as Loeb) as 'talentless hacks'" C'mon?! He wrote Commando!?! "Let off some steam Bennett." Masterpiece of film! Should have won an Oscar back in the eighties! hahahaha

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It depends on the writer. A writer who prefers Captain Marvel, would make him win whereas another writer would make SM the victor

 

EXACTLY DITTO'ED!!! <nod of the head/tip of the hat to LarryKoppa> :D

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Back to the original question and then a few thoughts...

 

As to who is more powerful, both Superman and Captain Marvel are equally powerful.

 

As to who would win in a fight, Superman would easily devastate Captain Marvel. The Big Red Cheese is no push-over to be sure, but he could never stand up to a hardened experience hand-to-hand combatant like Superman. First off, as I mentioned in the Flash-Superman thread, Superman is a master of a Kryptonian form of martial arts known as Klurkor. Captain Marvel, as strong as he is, has never displayed any knowledge of hand-to-hand combat beyond simple brawling. Secondly, Superman regularly faces heavy-hitting equally powerful opponents such as General Zod, Parasite, Bizarro, and others. Captain Marvel fights old men and worms. Sure Black Adam is an opponent of his but he usually needs the entire Marvel Family to take him on. Superman would take him out fairly handily.

 

Now a few comments...

 

1. Captain Marvel is NOT a child in the body of an adult. I think the first time I saw this idiotic interpretation was in DeMatteis and Giffen's Justice League during the "Captain Whitebread" days. Up until then, Cap has always been depicted as nothing other than a adult with all due maturity and intelligence. As others have noted, he has the wisdom of Solomon... and before anyone else cries about this, yes! He knows how to use it. Unfortunately, contemporary comic book writers are unable to write a subtle, mature personality. They need a huge personality flaw or some sort of gimmick in order to identify their characters. You can't just have a normal, well-adjusted good guy anymore. He has to be psychotic, impulsive, a hot-headed jerk or have some sort of oddball novelty like being a little kid in a grown man's body.

 

2. Kingdom Come is one of the most overrated, severely flawed stories I've ever read and sadly, DC has embraced it as if it were its most sacred bible. Captain Marvel's move in the stories climax where he used his magic lightning offensively against Superman is a scene straight out of badly written wish-fulfilling fan fiction. Ross clearly came up with this as a kid, fell in love with the idea, and believed it to be extremely clever. The problem here is that this is the FIRST time the magic lightning ever worked this way! Billy Batson has summoned the lightning in doors, in closets, under water, under ground, in space, and on other planets. Never has the lightning EVER caused any collateral damage. Billy has even summoned the lightning while tied to other people. These people were never fried by the lightning. I've always thought of the lightning as a mystical symbol that was almost metaphorical rather than an actual concrete bolt! I'd wager Ross was influenced by Alan Moore's work on Captain Marvel's counterpart, Miracleman, who's transformations tended to vaporize anyone in his vicinity. Tragically, Ross' Kingdom Come climax keeps getting used repeatedly in other stories and media.

 

3. Somewhere along the line "magic" was listed as one of Superman's weaknesses right under kryptonite and ever since people have regarded the two interchangeably. The idea that Superman was vulnerable to magic came about as a means of explaining the many stories where Superman had proven vulnerable to magic spells, hexes and so forth. The intent here was to explain that while bullets and fire could not harm the Man of Steel, a witch could still turn him into a frog or hit him with a spell that could cause him to fall in love with her. If that witch tried to zap Superman with lightning though, the lightning, magic or otherwise, wouldn't do anything to him.

 

4. Crisis On Infinite Earths definitely marks the end of quality in all comics but some characters fared even far worse than others. Hawkman and Power Girl are just started to heal from their treatment in the wake of this bad idea of a series... and Hawkman only works if you don't think about him too hard! The Legion of Super Heroes NEVER recovered. Captain Marvel is another one. One of the worst consequences of the Crisis was that all of the various "Earths" were merged into one and heroes like Captain Atom, Captain Marvel, the JSA, the Freedom Fighters, and others who once had universes to call their own now found themselves dumped right alongside Superman and the JLA. Instantly, characters who had been the premiere heroes of their own Earth, their Earth's "Superman," now found themselves redundant and without a particular role. Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family had been the JLA of Earth S, but now they were homeless characters without a status. The Big Red Cheese limped along in a short-lived title and the Marvel Family has occasionally poked their heads into various team books like the JL, JSA, and even the Teen Titans. The World's Mightest Mortal had lost that status. Now he's a B-lister overshadowed by Superman! He's become like a guy you went to high school with who used to get really good grades and was voted Most Likely to Succeeed. Now however, he sells Amway to get by and whenever you see him, you say to yourself, "What happened to you, Man?"

 

5. For the definitive story on the relationship between Superman and Captain Marvel and their roles on their respective Earths, read the Pre-Crisis "Man and Supermarvel," a two-parter published in of all places DC Comics Presents ca #36 or 37.

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Arrow wrote:

 

Spiderman is #6 at 76,000+ copies, and Xmen is #10 at 65,000+ copies. The top selling book, SIEGE, only sold 108,000 copies--that out of 300 different titles shipped.

Marvel titles make up 6 of the top ten selling books last month, so someone is certainly reading them.

 

Bah! In my day, distribution numbers that low meant cancellation of a title! In 1969 Superman was selling over 500,000 copies, Batman was selling 355,000 copies, Spider Man came in at 372,000 copies. In the 70's, if a comic couldn't generate at least 100,000 issues sold, it was a flop and was cancelled. In the 40's and 50's, some comic titles sold millions of copies a month.

 

76,000 copies? Ha! That title wouldn't have made it to issue #2.

 

Very, very true and tragically so.

 

There are many reasons but they really boil down to two:

 

1. Poor Distribution: Comics almost DARE their customers to find them and are practically HIDING from any potential new audience.

 

2. Poor Editorial Control: Throw the poor quality of current comics under this umbrella. If a new reader should miraculously find a comic book, chances are they either won't make sense of it or won't find it appealing. Current comics also seem to DARE their customers to like them. "Hey Kids! Are you a Superman fan? Well, Superman doesn't appear in ANY of his FOUR titles any more but here's Part 5 of a 12 part maxi-crossover series that's been five years in the making. In this one, Dr. Light rapes the Elongated Man's wife and Blackhand molests some corpses. Sound like fun?"

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MasterJailer wrote:

 

As to who would win in a fight, Superman would easily devastate Captain Marvel. The Big Red Cheese is no push-over to be sure, but he could never stand up to a hardened experience hand-to-hand combatant like Superman. First off, as I mentioned in the Flash-Superman thread, Superman is a master of a Kryptonian form of martial arts known as Klurkor.

 

This is the one thing we disagree on (I agree with you on most of your other points). First, I think that the idea of Kryptonian karate is silly. When has Superman trained in it? This was another one of those idiotic Silver Age DC stunts to give Superman yet another superpower that he didn't already have. God forbid that anyone in the DC universe actually have better combat skills than Superman! :rolleyes:

 

This cracks me up:

 

Courtship-SpaceKarate.jpg

 

Really, Lois? When did you spend the 20 years or so in Kandor, which is how long it would take for you to become a "master"?

 

And a Kandorian "improvement" on karate? Who from earth came and taught karate to the Kandorians so that they could "improve" it? It would certainly take a long time to "improve" on karate (ie modify it into a deadlier art). How early on did they do this "improvement"? I just find this a silly piece of bad writing, as was so typical of DC in the Silver Age. Well, in any age, actually.

 

Captain Marvel, as strong as he is, has never displayed any knowledge of hand-to-hand combat beyond simple brawling. Secondly, Superman regularly faces heavy-hitting equally powerful opponents such as General Zod, Parasite, Bizarro, and others. Captain Marvel fights old men and worms. Sure Black Adam is an opponent of his but he usually needs the entire Marvel Family to take him on. Superman would take him out fairly handily.

 

Then again, Capt. Marvel has fought powerhouses like King Kull, Satan, Black Adam, Mr. Atom, etc. And how often has Superman been shown using his Kryptonian karate? It was basically a gimmick used in an old story, not something the character ever uses. I don't even believe it's listed as a skill in the Who's Who of the DC Universe. In every fight I can remember (and I read Superman, Action, LSH, and other Superman titles for decades), Superman basically brawls, just like Capt. Marvel. So no way would I consider this a valid argument.

 

Unfortunately, contemporary comic book writers are unable to write a subtle, mature personality. They need a huge personality flaw or some sort of gimmick in order to identify their characters. You can't just have a normal, well-adjusted good guy anymore. He has to be psychotic, impulsive, a hot-headed jerk or have some sort of oddball novelty like being a little kid in a grown man's body.

 

Here I have to agree totally with you. And it's a shame we have to agree on something like that. Shows how bad comics have become.

 

2. Kingdom Come is one of the most overrated, severely flawed stories I've ever read and sadly, DC has embraced it as if it were its most sacred bible. Captain Marvel's move in the stories climax where he used his magic lightning offensively against Superman is a scene straight out of badly written wish-fulfilling fan fiction. Ross clearly came up with this as a kid, fell in love with the idea, and believed it to be extremely clever.

 

Agreed, it was a stupid use of the lightning and I'm LOL about that last sentence. I'm sure he did pat himself on the back for that.

 

3. Somewhere along the line "magic" was listed as one of Superman's weaknesses right under kryptonite and ever since people have regarded the two interchangeably. The idea that Superman was vulnerable to magic came about as a means of explaining the many stories where Superman had proven vulnerable to magic spells, hexes and so forth. The intent here was to explain that while bullets and fire could not harm the Man of Steel, a witch could still turn him into a frog or hit him with a spell that could cause him to fall in love with her. If that witch tried to zap Superman with lightning though, the lightning, magic or otherwise, wouldn't do anything to him.

 

I think people have always misinterpreted this as Superman having magic as as "weakness", sorta like how kryptonite is a weakness of his and lead used to be a weakness to Mon-El. It's not really a weakness per se, like kryptonite. It's just that he has no defense against it, just as most other non-magical beings don't. In other words, it's not like he has a special weakness or intensified susceptibility to it per se, it's just that it affects him like it affects anyone else.

 

4. Crisis On Infinite Earths definitely marks the end of quality in all comics but some characters fared even far worse than others.

 

I stopped reading DC after that. The "messy continuity" argument never cut it for me either.

 

Current comics also seem to DARE their customers to like them. "Hey Kids! Are you a Superman fan? Well, Superman doesn't appear in ANY of his FOUR titles any more but here's Part 5 of a 12 part maxi-crossover series that's been five years in the making. In this one, Dr. Light rapes the Elongated Man's wife and Blackhand molests some corpses. Sound like fun?"

 

Oh dear god, don't even get me started on the nastiness that exists in comics these days. I almost consider modern writers as having raped my childhood because of this.

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Back to the original question and then a few thoughts...

 

As to who is more powerful, both Superman and Captain Marvel are equally powerful.

 

As to who would win in a fight, Superman would easily devastate Captain Marvel. The Big Red Cheese is no push-over to be sure, but he could never stand up to a hardened experience hand-to-hand combatant like Superman. First off, as I mentioned in the Flash-Superman thread, Superman is a master of a Kryptonian form of martial arts known as Klurkor. Captain Marvel, as strong as he is, has never displayed any knowledge of hand-to-hand combat beyond simple brawling. Secondly, Superman regularly faces heavy-hitting equally powerful opponents such as General Zod, Parasite, Bizarro, and others. Captain Marvel fights old men and worms. Sure Black Adam is an opponent of his but he usually needs the entire Marvel Family to take him on. Superman would take him out fairly handily.

 

Now a few comments...

 

1. Captain Marvel is NOT a child in the body of an adult. I think the first time I saw this idiotic interpretation was in DeMatteis and Giffen's Justice League during the "Captain Whitebread" days. Up until then, Cap has always been depicted as nothing other than a adult with all due maturity and intelligence. As others have noted, he has the wisdom of Solomon... and before anyone else cries about this, yes! He knows how to use it. Unfortunately, contemporary comic book writers are unable to write a subtle, mature personality. They need a huge personality flaw or some sort of gimmick in order to identify their characters. You can't just have a normal, well-adjusted good guy anymore. He has to be psychotic, impulsive, a hot-headed jerk or have some sort of oddball novelty like being a little kid in a grown man's body.

 

2. Kingdom Come is one of the most overrated, severely flawed stories I've ever read and sadly, DC has embraced it as if it were its most sacred bible. Captain Marvel's move in the stories climax where he used his magic lightning offensively against Superman is a scene straight out of badly written wish-fulfilling fan fiction. Ross clearly came up with this as a kid, fell in love with the idea, and believed it to be extremely clever. The problem here is that this is the FIRST time the magic lightning ever worked this way! Billy Batson has summoned the lightning in doors, in closets, under water, under ground, in space, and on other planets. Never has the lightning EVER caused any collateral damage. Billy has even summoned the lightning while tied to other people. These people were never fried by the lightning. I've always thought of the lightning as a mystical symbol that was almost metaphorical rather than an actual concrete bolt! I'd wager Ross was influenced by Alan Moore's work on Captain Marvel's counterpart, Miracleman, who's transformations tended to vaporize anyone in his vicinity. Tragically, Ross' Kingdom Come climax keeps getting used repeatedly in other stories and media.

 

3. Somewhere along the line "magic" was listed as one of Superman's weaknesses right under kryptonite and ever since people have regarded the two interchangeably. The idea that Superman was vulnerable to magic came about as a means of explaining the many stories where Superman had proven vulnerable to magic spells, hexes and so forth. The intent here was to explain that while bullets and fire could not harm the Man of Steel, a witch could still turn him into a frog or hit him with a spell that could cause him to fall in love with her. If that witch tried to zap Superman with lightning though, the lightning, magic or otherwise, wouldn't do anything to him.

 

4. Crisis On Infinite Earths definitely marks the end of quality in all comics but some characters fared even far worse than others. Hawkman and Power Girl are just started to heal from their treatment in the wake of this bad idea of a series... and Hawkman only works if you don't think about him too hard! The Legion of Super Heroes NEVER recovered. Captain Marvel is another one. One of the worst consequences of the Crisis was that all of the various "Earths" were merged into one and heroes like Captain Atom, Captain Marvel, the JSA, the Freedom Fighters, and others who once had universes to call their own now found themselves dumped right alongside Superman and the JLA. Instantly, characters who had been the premiere heroes of their own Earth, their Earth's "Superman," now found themselves redundant and without a particular role. Captain Marvel and the Marvel Family had been the JLA of Earth S, but now they were homeless characters without a status. The Big Red Cheese limped along in a short-lived title and the Marvel Family has occasionally poked their heads into various team books like the JL, JSA, and even the Teen Titans. The World's Mightest Mortal had lost that status. Now he's a B-lister overshadowed by Superman! He's become like a guy you went to high school with who used to get really good grades and was voted Most Likely to Succeeed. Now however, he sells Amway to get by and whenever you see him, you say to yourself, "What happened to you, Man?"

 

5. For the definitive story on the relationship between Superman and Captain Marvel and their roles on their respective Earths, read the Pre-Crisis "Man and Supermarvel," a two-parter published in of all places DC Comics Presents ca #36 or 37.

 

 

1. I agree, Captain Marvel has a history of having the worst writers in history. As explained, Captain Marvel should be taken quite serious in the DC Universe. He has the wisdom of Solomon yet he never uses it, its should as part of the transformation as any other power he uses at his whim. Billy is supposed to house the innocence that the Wizard was looking for in place of Mighty Adam who was a man. Writers just don't seem to care enough about the character to even make him worthwhile. In his marvel form, he should be a lot more.

 

2. I liked Kingdom Come as for what it is, its an Elseworld's tale. The problem is when an outside influence takes hold and roots into the regular continuity. I never liked the idea of the TV shows and movies taking residence in regular continuity. Of all things, Superman Returns is now in regular continuity, the changed all the stuff from 1985 and revamped Supes after the movie. Again, outside influences.

 

3. Yes, the Marvel (Spidey/Hulk) love to bring that up. I keep explaining this, Superman fights magical beings all the time and is no more vulnerable than Batman or the Flash. It is just listed as a weakness because he is so powerful they needed more to things to define as a "threat" to him.

 

4. I am also not a big fan of Crisis and never understood much of what happened. Its like some characters remember it and some characters don't. At times the reference the great crisis yet history was rewritten. Dan Jurgens sought to clean it up a little with Zero hour but again certain characters like Hawkman, etc didn't go anywhere. Like you mentioned, some did great in Crisis and others didn't, its all very confusing.

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CapnJeffro wrote:

 

You seem to be hinging much of your argument on the principle of if you don't like a story it just doesn't count.

 

If that's all you got out of my argument, then you're either glossing over it and not paying attention or you've chosen to ignore it. It's a lot more complex than what you're attempting to distill it down to, but I don't have time today to go over it again, so please re-read my posts. There's a reason I respect what legends such as Kirby, Lee, or Englehart while referring to many modern day writers (such as Loeb) as "talentless hacks".

 

As for common sense, we certainly can apply that to comics. Superman has super strength. Batman does not. Batman cannot arm wrestle Superman and have any hope of winning. That's common sense. Comic writers used to use common sense all the time.

 

And yes, I'd say the first 25 years or so of Marvel Comics were worthy. After that it became hack writers and crap stories that had no continuity, no common sense, and no respect for character development. Just because something exists does not give it an inherent value.

 

A great point was made, regardless of your personal feelings, Superman met Thor in a match head-on and lost. Not only did Superman survive the onslaught of magic lightning and the raw strength of Thor, he stopped his most powerful weapon and knocked him out....from a crouching position no less. Thor is strong, but his magical hammer really sets him apart, how many people do you think he could best without it. Also in Marvel's own movie Hulk vs Thor....Thor got it handed to him.

 

Also regarding Marvel comics in the past 25 years have been worthy.....please! No matter how many sales, it doesn't change the poor quality of their books. I used to actually read more marvel books even though I liked DC better....when something is better to me, its just better no matter if I like the characters or not. After the endless drama of the X-Men books, I had to get out. The X-Men books are much like the 90's

X-Men cartoon, it was all a bunch of hype yet the drama never really paid off. I watched this show all the time, but got tired of the hype going nowhere and characters mindlessly not using their powers and such...this is X-Men......Wolverine takes out his claws, the music starts and your like "oh boy, action time"......then nothing happens. Every company has their creative slumps, DC still is suffering from it even though their is nothing to currently warrant it, Marvel has not produced any really decent comics in the past 25 years. Civil War was a great read until the end...no pay off, that is the Marvel way.

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Marvel has not produced any really decent comics in the past 25 years. Civil War was a great read until the end...no pay off, that is the Marvel way.

 

I have to beg to differ, mainly to mention Peter David's Incredible Hulk run. To me, those stories are more important than Watchmen and Dark Knight, because he brought a level of respect for the characters and sophistication that was rare in comics, and it had to be done in a regular monthly title meant to be suitable for all audiences. And this was accomplished using the Hulk, of all characters. I love ol' Jadejaws, but certain incarnations of the character are admittedly limited in story potential. As for other Hulk eras from the past few years, I wasn't the biggest fan of the Bruce Jones stuff but it was enjoyable to me in some ways. And the Greg Pak Planet Hulk era was great as well. There have been many other well crafted comics in recent years, IMO. Linsner's Dawn, Liberty Meadows, the original Infinity Guantlet... I currently enjoy Booster Gold and Incredible Hercules a lot. Just because one doesn't like certain titles or isn't aware of them doesn't mean that everything sucks.

 

And I really don't wish to derail the topic any further (if anyone is actually even discussing it anymore), but, with all due respect, how are DC's big summer blockbuster miniseries any different from the "Marvel way"? I've been enjoying Blackest Night so far, as well as some of the complimentary titles like Blackest Night: Batman. But ultimately, it won't have any more resolution than Civil War did.

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