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Star Trek: Nemesis=Underrated?


Devilbat
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I just wanted a real opinion from true fans: Does anyone else think Nemesis is way underated in the "Next Generation" series of films? In my Star-Trek-movie marathon, I've gotten around to watching it, and I just think it's fantastic; it has a great premise-a clone of Picard wants to undermine the Romulan empire while exacting revenge on the Federation as well as Picard himself with a bad-@$$ ship. And you have a major character make the ultimate sacrifice, which always makes for great drama. The story is great, the action is great, the cinematography is excellent...I just always really loved it and felt it was a fitting yet underrated entry in the Star Trek film series. But what do the rest of you think?

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I did not like it, and never have.

Data's sacrifice came off as hollow, even pointless because we were left with the inferior B4 character--who made little sense to begin with. I don't think any of the Next Gen films have played off very well at all--but then I'm one of those fans that likes to believe that Star Trek really ended when the end credits for Wrath of Khan rolled......

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It's better than Insurrection that's for sure. Not as good as First Contact (but I would argue FC is in the top three of all the ST films behind Undiscovered Country and Wrath of Khan, and definitely the best of the TNG films). I would say it's slightly below Generations only because it didn't really do anything new. By the time Nemesis came around it felt like they were pumping out Trek movies for the sake of pumping them out. I think enough time has passed that I might be able to watch it again with a fresh eye.

 

Of course, nothing is going to rock like this new film, sweet delilah, I'm gettin' a Woody just thinking about Friday!

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It might be a LITTLE underrated. I'll need to watch it again.

 

One thing I did not like was Worf being back with the gang without any explaination. They said Data's death HAD to be done because Spiner was getting too old. I don't know why if that's the last we're ever going to hear from the TNG crew anyway. Why not just have him ride off into the sunset with everyone else?

 

If you take comic book stories as "cannon" then everything's just fine and dandy anyway because Data is alive and well with his programing transfered into the B4 body. Plus he's now the Enterprise E captain.

 

I too am getting a woody thinking about Friday.

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I just had to login to reply to this (and it's such a pain in the ass to login these days everytime I come here)

 

NO. It is NOT underrated. It is pure PURE PURE _asssss_ and it happened in an alternate reality

 

that movie is just AWFUL

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I just had a TNG movie marathon recently and I'll say that I did not like it. Of the four movies, I enjoyed First Contact and Insurrection (despite the problems that I had with some of the story of Insurrection, as well as the "joystick" manual steering). I think a lot of it has to do with the competence of the director of both of those movies, Jonathan Frakes.

 

On the plus side of Nemesis, there was a definite sinister villain that had to be defeated. The entire premise of the story was excellent, but the execution of the movie was poor. I did not feel that the production was great and the overall flow of the movie was jagged (not unlike X3). The movie toys are excellent and I wish I would have picked them up.

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Underrated? No, not at all. It's certainly the worst of the Next Generation movies.

 

1 - First Contact @Assimilate@

2 - Insurrection @ray@

3 - Generations @cap@

4 - Nemesis @onthecan@

 

Worf being back without any explaination (and even in "Countdown" the prequel comic to the new movie, they show Worf still being with the Klingons as he should be since the end of DS9), Data's pointless death and the discovery of yet another android (B4) (Although as someone else mentioned, in "Countdown" which is offical continuity, Data's programming is in B4 and he's fine), The Picard clone was a good idea, but didn't pan out as cool, he really sucked actually, they tried to make the movie all "Wrath of Khan-ey" but failed miserably. The movie was a really bad send off for our beloved Next Generation crew. 0/10

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I was a big TNG fan while it aired, but never saw Nemesis when it was in theaters. I actually just watched it this weekend (a friend told me it has -some- connection to the new movie, guess I'll have to wait & see) and I thought it was just okay. I literally got up to eject the disc when Data was singing in the opening scene, but thankfully it stopped before I reached the DVD player. The rest of the movie felt like a longer TV episode (which I remember was my main issue with Insurrection when I saw it in the theater & haven't watched it since) and not much really stood out to me except the battle with the Romulan wingmen.

 

As for Data's death, I really didn't understand the reasoning from a dramatic OR real-life perspective. If Spiner's age beginning to show was a factor (which I believe he's said himself) then why have this B-4 character look exactly the same? As for the dramatic angle, well it just rings hollow for a character to sacrifice himself when there's already another one on board that looks just like him. If anything, that lessened Data's importance to me, like "oh, well it's okay, he's already been backed up, so no real harm done."

 

Overall, I liked it a little more than Insurrection, and Shinzon certainly made for a better villain than F. Murray Abraham, but I doubt I'd ever watch either movie again.

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Nemesis wasn't as good as First Contact (FC came up with cool new ideas: Borg Queen and first warp flight) but there is another factor as to why it tanked - it opened a week before Lord of the Rings. No one wanted to watch it, packed into stadium seating for Peter Jackson's movie! haha I think it would have done much better if it was released in the summer. But if it didn't tank maybe we wouldn't have JJ Abrams Star Trek coming out this Friday! :D

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Nemesis sucked as far as Star Trek movies go. the whole idea these remans and the picard clone/slave could have made the most advance ship in the galaxy without anyone knowing is ridiculous, and the whole B4 thing sucked. Again, somehow these slaves being able to find another Data and then assemble and alter the programing just didn't jive. Then to top it off having things like Worf serving on the Enterprise without any kind of explanation since last we had seen him on DS9 he had become an ambasador for the Klingon Empire or Wes who was off in alternate dimensions last time we saw him. Insurection was a better movie IMO, except for flying the Enterprise with a joystick the overall story in that one seemed better thought out than Nemesis which basically came off as bad copy of WOK with big space balltes and the death of a main character. In overall Trek movies I put Nemesis right up there with Star Trek 5.

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Let me preface this by saying that I've seen every Star Trek movie, but it's been awhile since I've seen some of them. I have seen Nemesis more recently.

 

I rank the TNG movies like this:

 

First Contact

Nemesis

Insurrection

Generations

 

FC is hands down the best, no question. The rest are all probably tied for second. Generations always seemed a little too canned for my liking, with the Captain Kirk connection. Insurrection was just sort of "blah." And Nemesis has its share of issues, but also has some bright spots as well, just sorta average overall.

 

I'm a bigger TNG fan than TOS, but the TOS movies were overall much better quality. There weren't many bad ones in that group. Hopefully the new movie will give the franchise the kick-in-the-pants that it needs.

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I think Nemesis is rated just about where it belongs in the film series - some fans really hate it, some really like it, and most just kind of let it be. It just has way too many problems to really be given too much praise.

 

The biggest problem is that the director didn't know anything about Star Trek. Sure they got some fancy screenwriter with some fancy credits to his name that claimed to be a fan, but in the end I think it did more harm than good. He was such a fan that he just recreated bits and pieces of other Star Trek movies and TV episodes and cobbled them together rather than approaching the project as one big new story.

 

The entire movie feels like it's just another run through of the routine rather than something special for the big screen. Sure, Riker and Troi's wedding was a big event, but even for those of us who watched the TNG characters for 15 years it felt a bit like "Eh, might as well..."

 

There's almost no point to the Romulans being in the movie. Shinzon and the Remans could have been any other race and it would have worked just as well without any real changes. Plus, the whole "Shinzon's a clone of Picard that everyone forgot about" was so contrived and manufactured an idea that it didn't really hold any dramatic weight to it. And then there's B4.... a terrible idea that doesn't fit in with anything that had previously been established about Dr. Soong and the development of his androids....

 

After First Contact the idea of Picard running around with a phaser rifle to solve all his problems was more than a little ridiculous. It's like everyone was sitting around at a pitch meeting talking about how great First Contact was, and somehow they settled upon the idea that it was all because of the phaser rifle so all future TNG movies should use them.

 

The entire climax of the film was just a shallow copy of the climaxes from Wrath of Kahn and Undiscovered Country. A ship that can fire while cloaked and the Enterprise has to figure out how to outmaneuver it? Done earlier and done better in Undiscovered Country. The ship is disabled but there's a doomsday device that the logical minded character has to sacrifice himself in order to stop? Been there, done that.

 

I really wanted to like Nemesis, and I've tried watching it again and again and with the deleted scenes hoping it would get better, but in the end it's just kinda there.

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Yeah I can watch any Star Trek movie many times, even Nemesis, here is how I rank the Star Trek movies.

 

Star Trek II

Star Trek III

First Contact

Star Trek (2009)

Star Trek IV

Star Trek Motion Picture

Star Trek VI

Star Trek Generations

Star Trek Insurection

Star Trek V

Star Trek Nemesis

 

The last 3 all rank pretty closely with each other.

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Insurrection was at its worse, innocuous. When I saw it in theaters I LOVED it. I loved the action and the space battles etc. Now it just feels more like a generic TNG episode. So it's not awful

 

Nemesis was just so bad. They tried and tried to make a TNG movie named nemesis and they finally did. The point being they wanted a Khan 2. Boy they failed.

 

Here's how I rank them

 

ST4

ST6

ST2

ST3

ST8

 

ST7

ST9

ST5

ST10 (Nemesis)

ST1 (TMP)

 

The only reason nemesis is 2nd to last is because as much as I hate it, I can at least WATCH it. TMP is unbareable.

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The biggest problem is that the director didn't know anything about Star Trek. Sure they got some fancy screenwriter with some fancy credits to his name that claimed to be a fan, but in the end I think it did more harm than good.

 

Statements like that make me worry about the new movie! But I'll be in line to see it anyway.

 

Wow, JayC and amazingdm put Nemesis below ST5. I'm going to have to watch the TOS movies to decide for myself.

 

On a side note, I just read that in the movie "Spaced" (starring Simon Pegg) it is noted that the odd number Star Trek movies are $#!+, and that's a fact of life. This is done by none less that Pegg's character. If true, the good movies are:

 

Wrath of Khan

The Voyage Home

The Undiscovered Country

First Contact

Nemesis

 

With the movies resembling feces being:

 

The Motion Picture

The Search for Spock

The Final Frontier

Generations

Insurrection

 

... and last, but more interesting...

 

STAR TREK (2009)

 

 

I wonder if there will be a sequel to "Spaced" where Pegg's character will change his mind.

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Wow...I wanted an honest opinion, I got it. (lol) Yeah, this is about the general impression I've always gotten from fans' reaction to Nemesis, although I'm not completely sure why it is as reviled as it is. I mean, sure, you guys have pointed out some problems. And I will admit there are some things about it that I'm not so sure about myself; aren't they in the twenty-fourth century? If so, why would they utilyze a four-wheeled combustion-like engine powered "car" for away missions? With all of the technology they have, to me it would have made more sense to see a land-speeder-type vehicle. It would have been much cooler and made way more sense than Picard and company driving around a Federation-issue dune-buggy. (lol) But anyway...

 

I guess it's no big deal for me personally to see "recycled" elements in Nemesis. I tend to think that Star Trek as a whole has somewhat of a limit as to it's elements anyway; you're always gonna have strategic space battles, shuttle and away missions, interactions with alien species, time travel, and/or troubles with "anomalies". There will be some variation of these basic elements, but to me that's okay.

 

I just have to admit to being one of those fans that sees Star Trek like pizza; even when it's bad, it's still good. (lol) I guess I just love the characters so much that's it's hard for me to disike anything they're in. I'm cheap and easy I guess. (lol)

 

Also, I think I enjoy some things about Nemesis that are more cerebral and implied that any over-the-top battles or physical confrontations. For example, I love the notion of Picard having to face a younger, evil version of himself in battle. That just really appeals to me. How does Picard counter the moves of his younger self? How does he try to out-think and out-maneuver him? I enjoy it for that reason.

 

Data "dying" and being replaced with B4? To me you have this great sacrifice from Data; it's the ultimate expression of his strive to be human, sacrificing himself for those he cares for. And he's replaced with this being that simply has his abilities; it's almost like from now on you'd have this shadowy reflection, to paraphrase another great franchise, of a beloved character that looks, maybe acts, and even thinks like the original, but the tragedy is he'll never be Data, no matter what he does or says. It's just such a haunting way to commemorate Data's character. But really, in practical terms, Data's sacrifice in the wake of Spiner's aging process was unecessary, at least thanks to today's technology; with the computer imaging technology they have they could make Spiner look twenty years younger, as if he actually were an android that couldn't age. Just look at what they did for Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen in X-Men 3. Personally, for me though, I just always explained it away as Data emoting with his face so much trying to be more human, that he aged his synthetic skin much like actual humans do, thereby making him truly more "human".

 

And I also like the focus being more on the strategic space battle as opposed to prolonged away missions and the majority of the action happening "off-ship" like in the other films. I guess that does hearken back to TWOK like others have pointed out.

 

Ahh...of course it all comes down to opinion. I definitely wouldn't place it last in my order of favorites. I think that distinction belongs soley to TMP. Egad...I watched it again the other day, and it was almost a chore to get through in some spots! (lol) But like I said about even the bad being good, I still like it. It's still Star Trek with the original cast, even if they are mind-numbingly boring and bland in that one. (lol)

 

No...TWOK will always be my favorite. And Generations is still one of my favorites as well. I guess it's because it was the debut of The Next Generation cast on-screen, and that was special to me since I always considered TNG to be my own generation's Star Trek.

 

 

One more thing though; there was something else about Nemesis that did bother me: Didn't Picard have hair during his academy days? He looks at a picture of himself from those days in Nemesis, and he's as bald as a cueball. (lol) Didn't he appear in an episode of the tv series that recounted his youth, and he actually had hair? I thought that was one discrepancy...

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The biggest problem is that the director didn't know anything about Star Trek. Sure they got some fancy screenwriter with some fancy credits to his name that claimed to be a fan, but in the end I think it did more harm than good.

 

Statements like that make me worry about the new movie! But I'll be in line to see it anyway.

 

Wow, JayC and amazingdm put Nemesis below ST5. I'm going to have to watch the TOS movies to decide for myself.

 

On a side note, I just read that in the movie "Spaced" (starring Simon Pegg) it is noted that the odd number Star Trek movies are $#!+, and that's a fact of life. This is done by none less that Pegg's character. If true, the good movies are:

 

Wrath of Khan

The Voyage Home

The Undiscovered Country

First Contact

Nemesis

 

With the movies resembling feces being:

 

The Motion Picture

The Search for Spock

The Final Frontier

Generations

Insurrection

 

... and last, but more interesting...

 

STAR TREK (2009)

 

 

I wonder if there will be a sequel to "Spaced" where Pegg's character will change his mind.

 

This is actually true and the reason I've hear given for this is that after a good movie the cast warrent higher pay for the following movie which means that in order to pay them more they take the money from other areas, like from the writters.

 

I like Star Trek the motion picture, it has some of the most stunning visual effects of any of the Trek movies. The close-ups of the Enterprise which many were reused in WOK are spectacular and I love the soundtrack from that one. It does however drag out at times as they are flying through the cloud.

 

Star Trek IV does a good job of digging themselves out of the holes the writers had dug themselves into with the previous two movies and some great inteaction between the crewmembers but lacks in the action dept.

 

I know many like Star Trek Undiscovered Country but honestly it is one of my least favorite ones, especially since it's the last movie the entire original cast are on film together.

 

As for the new movie, as I've said before it's not perfect and really were it hurts the most is how little time they go into the back story of Nero which is why I can't stress enough how if you haven't already should really check out the IDW prequal comic before going to see the movie, but I think overall this new cast did a fantastic job of potraying young versions of these classic characters and think they have a bright future ahead of em. There is also plenty of action in this one and has some nice visuals of the new Enterprise. Not quit as nice as those in ST1 and ST2 but closer to anything we've see since those two movies.

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Some of you guys keep mentioning Worf suddenly reappearing inexplicably on the Enterprise in Nemesis; wasn't he on-board in Insurrection as well? And even before that wasn't he captain of the Defiant, at least in the movies? Couldn't he have just taken a step down from whatever position he had? Maybe there was more going on in the tv series than I'm aware of, but really I don't see it as a big deal. Plenty of things can happen off-screen, even though that would be the writer's lazy way out... (lol)

 

And I find that I can't compare the "original cast" movies to the "Next Generation" ones. I just can't. They have their own merits and stand alone as their own film series for obvious reasons. Here's how I would rank them:

 

Films of the Original Crew:

 

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

 

Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

 

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

 

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

 

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (simply for the interactions between Krk, Spock, and McCoy, like JayC said)

 

Star Trek: The Motion Picture

 

 

The "Next Generation" Films:

 

First Contact (I LOVE this one!!)

 

Star Trek: Generations

 

Star Trek: Nemesis

 

Star Trek: Insurrection (This one was great, but I too felt like it was an overblown tv episode...)

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