Any one else seen Wonder woman

[Doom Saber]

Queen, that was the right thing to do

 

The WW movie, while written well, is not for children. It would be awful for a child who likes stuff like Scooby Doo and other children animations to watch somethin like Wonder Woman; that is like letting a child who is into Chowder watch Ninja Scroll.

[synch]

IMO none of the DCmovie animations are I was surprised at heck at how violent the doomsday one was I mean he kills bambie for freak sake!

[ARROW]

Queen, that was the right thing to do

 

The WW movie, while written well, is not for children. It would be awful for a child who likes stuff like Scooby Doo and other children animations to watch somethin like Wonder Woman; that is like letting a child who is into Chowder watch Ninja Scroll.

 

If Gramma had the presence of mind, she'd look at the DVD package which states the film is PG-13, rather than assuming all cartoons are safe for kiddies. I mean, perish forbid, that someone do the exact opposite and tuck a copy of Legend of the Overfiend into her hands..... @smilepunch@

Its not the filmmakers responsibility to make sure the little tykes will not be traumatized by Wonder Woman cleaving some bad guy in two, or Batman kicking in the teeth of the Joker etc.

[Toysniper]

Wonder Woman is an OUTSTANDING movie and I can't wait for the next DC Movie!

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

Queen, that was the right thing to do

 

The WW movie, while written well, is not for children. It would be awful for a child who likes stuff like Scooby Doo and other children animations to watch somethin like Wonder Woman; that is like letting a child who is into Chowder watch Ninja Scroll.

 

If Gramma had the presence of mind, she'd look at the DVD package which states the film is PG-13, rather than assuming all cartoons are safe for kiddies. I mean, perish forbid, that someone do the exact opposite and tuck a copy of Legend of the Overfiend into her hands..... @smilepunch@

Its not the filmmakers responsibility to make sure the little tykes will not be traumatized by Wonder Woman cleaving some bad guy in two, or Batman kicking in the teeth of the Joker etc.

 

 

Man i dont know what the hecks up with me as of late. 1st I give a crap about some snot nose brat's innocents and go so far as to discourage the sale of a DC dvd, now im about to say this which is very out of chacter of me:

 

Arrow normaly I'd agree with you, but what I think has happened with this WW toon movie is that DC totaly for got the true nature of WW. I'm very certain that mjuch of the violance and killing in it is purly for the sake of drawing and keeping the demographic of the male video game teen and older crowd. And when i digest the movie even further in my mind I find that the "over the top mass murder" in facts serve to slap the true power of Womanhood in the face IMO.

 

Think about it for a second. After I had time to realy think it over (and watched it 2 more times), i came away with the sence that these "Amazons" were in NO WAY superior in mind, body, or soul to that of "man's world". They killed at the drop of a dime just like any 3rd world dictator were there is no democracy.

 

Arrow it is true that it should be the parents responsibilty to screen movie rateings and monitor what there kids are watching. BUT Wonder Woman has for a long time been a house hold name amung DC fans and more importantly women in general them selves. A parent (IMO) should'nt have to second guess things like the vertue and integrity of a WW animated film. This perticular incarnation of WW was more about BRUTALITY rather than EQUALITY.

 

DC was just scared its regular fans would cry the movie was too preachy and boring if it became a make shift platform for womens rights. Its true when i picked up this movie i was'nt realy in he mood for a sermon, but i also was'nt in the mood to see WW's mythos butchered and made out to show an island of women that have all gone mad with sadeizium when finaly free from man's opression.

[gruntcast]

I thought the movie was great, it really wasn't that violent. it was just right. No strange undertones either. Two decapitations that were showed in shadow and some blood, this movie is great.

[Doom Saber]

Queen, that was the right thing to do

 

The WW movie, while written well, is not for children. It would be awful for a child who likes stuff like Scooby Doo and other children animations to watch somethin like Wonder Woman; that is like letting a child who is into Chowder watch Ninja Scroll.

 

If Gramma had the presence of mind, she'd look at the DVD package which states the film is PG-13, rather than assuming all cartoons are safe for kiddies. I mean, perish forbid, that someone do the exact opposite and tuck a copy of Legend of the Overfiend into her hands..... @smilepunch@

Its not the filmmakers responsibility to make sure the little tykes will not be traumatized by Wonder Woman cleaving some bad guy in two, or Batman kicking in the teeth of the Joker etc.

 

LOL That Overfiend film would probably scar a kid for life.

 

Have not seen the original but have seen the remake

[DarthHavok]

Saw last night and I thought it was tits! Can't wait for the Green Lantern's new flick this July. I know we have had a ton of Batman stuff lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing him get his PG-13 animated flick. Same goes for Superman and the rest of the JLA's A-list.

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

Saw last night and I thought it was tits! Can't wait for the Green Lantern's new flick this July. I know we have had a ton of Batman stuff lately, but I wouldn't mind seeing him get his PG-13 animated flick. Same goes for Superman and the rest of the JLA's A-list.

 

does "tits" mean good or bad? im not familer with that perticular type of slang.

[Phillip]

The kids and I watched it together the other night. We all loved it. Fantastic animated movie ( for a direct to DVD). I only wish Warners would put more into the animation process. I would love to see DC characters with Disney level animation.

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

The kids and I watched it together the other night. We all loved it. Fantastic animated movie ( for a direct to DVD). I only wish Warners would put more into the animation process. I would love to see DC characters with Disney level animation.

 

 

 

 

how old are your kids? just curious.

[synch]

Watched it last night as well I loved it! Freakn great! Honestly I'd like to see them do a flash,batman , gl , who ever else movies in this style & then do a JLA One thing that shocked me was during the jet fights when the one guys buddy got all shot up & it did that top down shot so you could see it is that... the cockpit it self changed from gray to red from blood splatter ... I duno why why that surprised me but it did

 

Heck I hope we see a WW #2 in the same style continuing the story line

 

Oh best part for me was when the guy was in the jet talking to WW & he says something like "I hope you amazons aren't able to mass produce that thing!" ( talking about her truth rope lol) & WW just has this sly stor almsot evil looking smile on her face haha!

[Wheeljack35]

I would like to see a JLA version but use there voices from the recent toon

[ARROW]

I only wish Warners would put more into the animation process. I would love to see DC characters with Disney level animation.

 

 

You'll never see that.

That kind of feature animation is just too time consuming and expensive to produce for Direct-to-DVD productions.

These films are farmed out to Far Eastern hack shops that churn out the same garbage as TV. The animation is not even pencil-tested there, each scene is just done according to the layouts and timing charts provided by the layout crews ( or the directors)--which use the same timing formulas that have always "worked" for getting the stuff done fast, but have never worked well in TV animation.

Its like a 10-1 or 100-1 difference in terms of how the animation is produced......a Disney, or similar level, feature has far more care and work invested in it, which is why it looks better.

At best, you might get a shop like Madhouse in Japan doing the work ( they did the Hulk Vs Wolverine featurette), and they know their stuff.

Since virtually every overseas shops don't pencil test, once the scene is done, its sent to colour.......and the action animated is what's shown on screen. There's no tweaking of the animation to make it look better--its just hacked out and left as it is--unless the director sees something really awful and glaring. In some cases where the animation seems jerky ( like a object turning) its a case of the hack animators not even following the timing charts or the "arcs" and just inbetweening the key poses directly. The whole point is to rush the stuff out the door as soon as possible and get paid ( which isn't much over there....).

 

One of the biggest difference with a Disney feature is the use of "ones" in the animation. This is when each frame shown represents ONE individual drawing. This means the actual animation often runs at 24 frames per second ( actually closer to about 30 frames these days with all the digital work being done) which gives the lush supple movement noted in Disney-style animation.

A cartoon like Wonder Woman is done mostly on "twos" which means each drawing is shot twice, and instead of running at 24 fps, runs at about 12 fps. At this frame rate, the action still seems fluid enough, and 99.9% of the viewers watching it will not consciously notice any difference. The problem with this frame rate is that it trips up on extremes of action--either action that moves really fast or really, really slow.

Its done this way simply because its cheaper....but the result is animation that is just not as fluid.

 

Its sad in a ways, but its the only way to produce these kinds of shows at all ( even Disney DtV cheapquels use the same methods, so go figure).

[ARROW]

<Double post>

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

ok I got two things for ya Arrow. The 1st is WW IS shot in 24 frames per second (FPS). The chick in charge of the animation (i forgot her name), clearly states while watching the movie with the commentary feature switched on (thats how lay-men like me pick up my lil tid bits of expertice), but she says that WW is indeed 24 FPS.

 

Next is your claim that we will NEVER see Disney level of animation with a straight to dvd movie. I got only one word for that statement...................ANIMÉ! Shows like Ghost in The Shell, Finaly Fantacy Advent Children, Blood the Last Vampire 2, ect ect not only have gone straight to dvd, but have almost the level of animation your speaking of. I'd love to see a JL animated movie with that level of detail but minus the animé eyes.

 

So like the saying goes.......................never say never.

[BigBot84]

ARROW did mention Madhouse.

[ARROW]

ok I got two things for ya Arrow. The 1st is WW IS shot in 24 frames per second (FPS). The chick in charge of the animation (i forgot her name), clearly states while watching the movie with the commentary feature switched on (thats how lay-men like me pick up my lil tid bits of expertice), but she says that WW is indeed 24 FPS.

 

Usually, I just ignore what you have to say, but animation is my forte, so let's clear up some misconceptions.

 

I won't expect you to know the difference, but its SHOT in 24 fps--which is the frame rate, not how many drawings per frame.

That does not mean its animated on ones. The frame rate is simply how fast the film moves through the projection/broadcasting equipment. Video and a lot of digital processes run at 30 FPS, Imax runs at a higher rate. The animation is still done on twos for Wonder Woman, and I can tell you that by just looking at the trailer.

 

Doubt me?

Freeze frame and frame advance the animation on your DVD player and count how many pushes of the frame advance button it takes before the action moves before the next frame (the next different drawing) appears--it'll be two frames for each drawing on 95% of the scenes.

Compare a genuine Disney feature and you'll find its on ones--hence every frame is a new drawing.

 

Next is your claim that we will NEVER see Disney level of animation with a straight to dvd movie. I got only one word for that statement...................ANIMÉ! Shows like Ghost in The Shell, Finaly Fantacy Advent Children, Blood the Last Vampire 2, ect ect not only have gone straight to dvd, but have almost the level of animation your speaking of. I'd love to see a JL animated movie with that level of detail but minus the animé eyes.

 

So like the saying goes.......................never say never.

 

 

No, they are not genuine theatre/feature level like Disney flicks--that is animated on ones.

Anime is predominantly limited animation, held cels, holds and such.

They use limited animation principles (and cheats) such as held cels with lip synch over top, something that Disney Feature animation tends to minimize or avoid completely.

Anime uses endless cheats to suggest movement.......slow pans over top a character whose mouth is just moving, repeat cycles on waving hair, staggers, etc. Disney Feature animation avoids cycled actions unless its something mechanical.

Anime seldom employs ANY animation on ones, its mostly twos or threes--even for effects animation.

 

And let me repeat, you will NEVER see Disney-feature level animation on a Direct to DVD feature from ANYWHERE, simply because of the expense of making such features. Its costs too much to animate on ones, takes too much time, requires more people to do it properly, and the production schedules cannot accommodate it.

Think about it, a film like Wonder Woman is animated ( that is to say the ACTUAL animation outside of pre-prod and layout) takes less than six months ( often around 4 months)

That means that 60 minutes of animation has to be animated in about 20-24 weeks.

Okay, here's some math for you to chew on:

 

Animation plays at 24 frames per second.

That means there's 1440 frames per minute of animation ( 1800 for video).

In 60 minutes, that's a MINIMUM of 86400 frames.

Note that frames are not the equivalent of actual drawings, of which there can be at least a 1/2 dozen layers of drawings per scene, hence 6 or more layered drawings per frame of animation. This means the total number of drawings per cartoon can be well in excess of 250,000.

Now.....animation is produced on a "footage" rate.......one foot of film is 16 frames. So one hour of film will have 5400 feet of film with in it.

(This number is important to remember, as you will see.)

 

Okay, so you have 24 weeks to produce--that is animate-- keys, clean-up and inbetween 5400 feet of film.

That means that each week, the animators have to produce 224 feet of animation ( approx) or about 3584 frames per week.

Now, this is the kicker---the average working rate for TV animation is about 10 feet per week.

That factors in if the scene is more than one character, on just a level or two, and if there's camera moves and such that need to be contended with.

10 feet a week per animator is conservative, because the actual rate can vary.

Remember, this does NOT account for pencil testing the animation (which means it is test shot on a camera to see if the animation works, which they do not do for DtV stuff, especially the stuff coming from overseas)......this is just doing the drawings and tucking them into a folder.

They do each scene once, and hand it it.......they MIGHT do one retake if the animation is completely unusable.

This means a crew of about 20 -30 key animators ( not counting effects animators), maybe 30-40 assistants and about the same number for tweens--and they need to get the work done in 24 weeks ( often less).

 

 

That's for a DtV level production, and its why it often looks shitty in comparison.

 

 

Contrast that with how Disney does it:

They will have a core of about 12-20 character animators. 10 or so effect animators. 20 or so clean-up artists for either character and effects animation. They will have 20 or so assistant animators who do JUST the secondary and mechanical animation, and then there's their 20 man clean-up teams. Then you have about 20-30 inbetweeners.

Their combined output for a scene is about 1 foot A DAY.

That is to say one foot of animation, per animator and each supporting talent underneath them, per day.

There can be up to 20 layers of animation per scene on a Disney feature ( I think the record is a scene with over 100 layers) comprising of multiple character, effects and other elements.

 

Their weekly output is about 3-5 feet, if that.

Each scene is pencil tested before approval, and the production schedule for JUST the animation is about a year and a half to 3 years. If the animation does not work, its done over again.......as many times as it takes to please the needs of the director.

 

 

 

They also get paid each about 10 times at least) what the folks doing the overseas DtV work get (some Disney animators make over OVER $250K a year)

The budget for a entire DtV film, is probably less than $1million.

 

 

Ponder those numbers for a while and you'll grasp why I say "you will never see Disney feature level animation on a DtV feature".

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

ok I got two things for ya Arrow. The 1st is WW IS shot in 24 frames per second (FPS). The chick in charge of the animation (i forgot her name), clearly states while watching the movie with the commentary feature switched on (thats how lay-men like me pick up my lil tid bits of expertice), but she says that WW is indeed 24 FPS.

 

Usually, I just ignore what you have to say, but animation is my forte, so let's clear up some misconceptions.

 

I won't expect you to know the difference, but its SHOT in 24 fps--which is the frame rate, not how many drawings per frame.

That does not mean its animated on ones. The frame rate is simply how fast the film moves through the projection/broadcasting equipment. Video and a lot of digital processes run at 30 FPS, Imax runs at a higher rate. The animation is still done on twos for Wonder Woman, and I can tell you that by just looking at the trailer.

 

Doubt me?

Freeze frame and frame advance the animation on your DVD player and count how many pushes of the frame advance button it takes before the action moves before the next frame (the next different drawing) appears--it'll be two frames for each drawing on 95% of the scenes.

Compare a genuine Disney feature and you'll find its on ones--hence every frame is a new drawing.

 

Next is your claim that we will NEVER see Disney level of animation with a straight to dvd movie. I got only one word for that statement...................ANIMÉ! Shows like Ghost in The Shell, Finaly Fantacy Advent Children, Blood the Last Vampire 2, ect ect not only have gone straight to dvd, but have almost the level of animation your speaking of. I'd love to see a JL animated movie with that level of detail but minus the animé eyes.

 

So like the saying goes.......................never say never.

 

 

No, they are not genuine theatre/feature level like Disney flicks--that is animated on ones.

Anime is predominantly limited animation, held cels, holds and such.

They use limited animation principles (and cheats) such as held cels with lip synch over top, something that Disney Feature animation tends to minimize or avoid completely.

Anime uses endless cheats to suggest movement.......slow pans over top a character whose mouth is just moving, repeat cycles on waving hair, staggers, etc. Disney Feature animation avoids cycled actions unless its something mechanical.

Anime seldom employs ANY animation on ones, its mostly twos or threes--even for effects animation.

 

And let me repeat, you will NEVER see Disney-feature level animation on a Direct to DVD feature from ANYWHERE, simply because of the expense of making such features. Its costs too much to animate on ones, takes too much time, requires more people to do it properly, and the production schedules cannot accommodate it.

Think about it, a film like Wonder Woman is animated ( that is to say the ACTUAL animation outside of pre-prod and layout) takes less than six months ( often around 4 months)

That means that 60 minutes of animation has to be animated in about 20-24 weeks.

Okay, here's some math for you to chew on:

 

Animation plays at 24 frames per second.

That means there's 1440 frames per minute of animation ( 1800 for video).

In 60 minutes, that's a MINIMUM of 86400 frames.

Note that frames are not the equivalent of actual drawings, of which there can be at least a 1/2 dozen layers of drawings per scene, hence 6 or more layered drawings per frame of animation. This means the total number of drawings per cartoon can be well in excess of 250,000.

Now.....animation is produced on a "footage" rate.......one foot of film is 16 frames. So one hour of film will have 5400 feet of film with in it.

(This number is important to remember, as you will see.)

 

Okay, so you have 24 weeks to produce--that is animate-- keys, clean-up and inbetween 5400 feet of film.

That means that each week, the animators have to produce 224 feet of animation ( approx) or about 3584 frames per week.

Now, this is the kicker---the average working rate for TV animation is about 10 feet per week.

That factors in if the scene is more than one character, on just a level or two, and if there's camera moves and such that need to be contended with.

10 feet a week per animator is conservative, because the actual rate can vary.

Remember, this does NOT account for pencil testing the animation (which means it is test shot on a camera to see if the animation works, which they do not do for DtV stuff, especially the stuff coming from overseas)......this is just doing the drawings and tucking them into a folder.

They do each scene once, and hand it it.......they MIGHT do one retake if the animation is completely unusable.

This means a crew of about 20 -30 key animators ( not counting effects animators), maybe 30-40 assistants and about the same number for tweens--and they need to get the work done in 24 weeks ( often less).

 

 

That's for a DtV level production, and its why it often looks shitty in comparison.

 

 

Contrast that with how Disney does it:

They will have a core of about 12-20 character animators. 10 or so effect animators. 20 or so clean-up artists for either character and effects animation. They will have 20 or so assistant animators who do JUST the secondary and mechanical animation, and then there's their 20 man clean-up teams. Then you have about 20-30 inbetweeners.

Their combined output for a scene is about 1 foot A DAY.

That is to say one foot of animation, per animator and each supporting talent underneath them, per day.

There can be up to 20 layers of animation per scene on a Disney feature ( I think the record is a scene with over 100 layers) comprising of multiple character, effects and other elements.

 

Their weekly output is about 3-5 feet, if that.

Each scene is pencil tested before approval, and the production schedule for JUST the animation is about a year and a half to 3 years. If the animation does not work, its done over again.......as many times as it takes to please the needs of the director.

 

 

 

They also get paid each about 10 times at least) what the folks doing the overseas DtV work get (some Disney animators make over OVER $250K a year)

The budget for a entire DtV film, is probably less than $1million.

 

 

Ponder those numbers for a while and you'll grasp why I say "you will never see Disney feature level animation on a DtV feature".

 

 

 

***slowly stretches hand across ground to touch feet like Mary Magnolin in Passion of the Christ*** @notworthy@ ...........oh.......oh.........oh my lord and savor arrow, thank you for taking time just to explaine the INFINITLY COMPLEX animation process to a low retch like me. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

dude........just try talking to people like a normal person for a change and not like your GOD ALMIGHTY. and i dont care what you say or claim to know. I still say the anime' i mentoned is very close to movie level animation.

[nonameshmo30]

People lets not fight about the frickin animation. That is such a small very tiny thing to be bickering about we are adults. come on........seriously come on........

[uli62]

ITS THE BEST ANIMATED COMIC BOOK MOIVIE SO FAR !!!!!

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

People lets not fight about the frickin animation. That is such a small very tiny thing to be bickering about we are adults. come on........seriously come on........

 

 

 

 

easy to say when your not the target of dudes mega snobery.

[ARROW]

People lets not fight about the frickin animation. That is such a small very tiny thing to be bickering about we are adults. come on........seriously come on........

 

Do you honestly think that someone like SQ would take a answer like " Trust me, Direct-to-DVD cartoons like Wonder Woman will never have Disney level animation"???

Of course not.

 

I've been in the animation business, in many capacities, for well over two decades.........so I know what I'm talking about.

SQ has .......what? Watched some cartoons??

He seems to think that grants him some degree of expertise on the subject.

 

Let's be very candid here.........when someone speaks up on something they know little or nothing about, they don't offer anything but noise.

Phillip posed a lament about DC superheroes characters and shows not seeing Disney-level animation.

 

I responded that it would never happen, and then I wrote why.

If anyone took the time to read all that stuff I wrote, they'd get enough info to understand that my statement isn't just blowing smoke, and that there's a reason that things are the way they are.

 

My response to Philip wasn't even aimed at SQ, but SQ came along and tried to refute that.............without knowing ANYTHING about how the whole process works. In fact, SQ tried to pose that he knew something about "how it all works", and got that wrong.

 

So I wrote an encapsulated breakdown of the process, so he ( and anyone else) can get a understanding of it. This comes from my professional knowledge and experience, and its an answer I can share with the readers here.

If someone wants to take the time to read it, they may learn something they might not know.

 

SQ just has his OH-Peen-YUNS and, in this case, I have actual experience. I can actually back up what I have to say.

Unfortunately, SQ likes to spin it so its just showing him up and belittling him.

[TheUberBarrett]

female superheroes are a useless and uninteresting. this will be the only straight to dvd dc film i wont buy.

[SUPREMEQUEEN]

***puts a hard nugget of shyt in a sling shot & shoots in down arrow's throat as he opens his mouth to bore us to death w/another long ass know it all rant***

 

Any way! WW needs more Diana Prince to give the whole thing counter balance. BTW I was able to score the Best Buy Exclusive figure dvd. Not to shabby if I do say so my self.