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revsears

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I'm just curious if there is a place where i can find accurate comparisons to the sales of the Joe line in it's last 3 incarnations.

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Historically, as a hard and fast rule, manufacturers do not give out comparable figures or production amounts for their lines.

 

The most you're gonna get is that the 25th figures are selling "better" than the previous lines of this decade.

 

According to who? I don't recall Hasbro making any statements to that effect. Just that the 25th line was selling "better than they expected." Given that the initial plan was just for two five-packs...clearly Hasbro didn't "expect" much at all from this line. Also remember, Hasbro "sells" to the retailers, not the consumers. They base their info on what they're shipping out to the stores, not what's actually getting bought up off the shelves.

 

As noted, Hasbro doesn't give out that kind of information, but if you remember just a few short years ago: Both Sigma 6 and JvC/Spy Troops/VvV had more shelf-space made available to them in the toy aisles than the 25th Anniversary Line has enjoyed any place except Toys R Us (and most of the shelf space there is a flood of their own exclusives). Now, much of the Sigma 6 product (particularly the 2.5" scale vehicles) ended up getting clearanced out, so I think we can safely say Sigma 6 did not sell as well as Hasbro wanted.

 

Personally, I'd put my money on JvC/Spy Troops/VvV (as a whole) selling the most out of the "modern" incarnations of Joe. Simply because thus far it was the longest lasting "modern" incarnation. Now...the "movie" product will probably outsell all of them (individually, not combined) in just one year.

 

Anyway, while 25A product might "sell through" better than Sigma 6 or (in some cases) JvC/Spy Troops/VvV (though I recall many of those figures selling quite well back then..not much more in the way of pegwarmers than we have for the 25A line, anyway), but it has definitely pushed a lower volume of product out to the shelves, probably resulting in lower overall sales than previous incarnations. The difference now is that Hasbro is OK with that because they know they have the big "movie push" coming up.

 

In a nutshell: The 25A line seems to have found the balance between supply and demand.

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Well, for JvC I purchased one of everything, sometimes two. :) Spy Troops was two of everything, with five of each army builder. VvV was two of everything wtih five of each army builder and 10-20 of the ones I really liked.

 

Did not spend a dime on Sigma Six.

 

Buy two of everything 25th, and two more of each army builder.

 

So, the JvC/ST/VvV line sold better to me! :)

 

(Mostly I am not buying as much because I don't have room, and haven't found anything truly exciting yet.)

 

-Kevin

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I for one loved the sigma 6 line and have maybe 90 % of a complete collection(minus the 2.5 figs). It was a cool stylized version of gi joe with tons of neat articulation and accs.

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The reason i'm asking is that it really seemed to me that Sigma six sold less. It ended quickly, we returned to 3 3/4 and it did see a lot of clearences etc. Sigma six toys seemed to linger everywhere as well after they were canceled (except for the few popular ones) the reason i'm asking is that the movie really seems to be more sigma six than whats out now, if what is out now is selling more would they have went that way? Then again, i still think this, and sigma six, is an attempt to make Joes less "solider" less "all-american" to reach an international audience and to offend less folks. I can't blame hasbro for that, this is a captilist economy for the time being, i just don't like it myself :(

 

I also remember hearing that VVV didn't sell poorly, just Less than it had hoped for and that Sales grew during the end of the line. I really wish i had that source! Cause toys continue to be a declining market.

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The reason i'm asking is that it really seemed to me that Sigma six sold less. It ended quickly, we returned to 3 3/4 and it did see a lot of clearences etc. Sigma six toys seemed to linger everywhere as well after they were canceled (except for the few popular ones) the reason i'm asking is that the movie really seems to be more sigma six than whats out now, if what is out now is selling more would they have went that way? Then again, i still think this, and sigma six, is an attempt to make Joes less "solider" less "all-american" to reach an international audience and to offend less folks. I can't blame hasbro for that, this is a captilist economy for the time being, i just don't like it myself :(

 

I also remember hearing that VVV didn't sell poorly, just Less than it had hoped for and that Sales grew during the end of the line. I really wish i had that source! Cause toys continue to be a declining market.

 

I think something a lot of folks need to remember about Sigma 6 was that the figures started at $9.99 apiece, up to $19.99 (or more depending on where you were buying them). They were expensive toys to collect, and I suspect that, more than anything led to their downfall. They just weren't a line that parents who were used to buying little figures for $4.99-$7.99 were going to buy in large numbers. A parent who might buy two 3 3/4" scale figures isn't likely to buy two Sigma 6 figures at one time.

 

The toys were very cool, and lots of fun, but I don't think it was the "style" or the themes of Sigma 6 that killed it...more like the pricepoints.

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The reason i'm asking is that it really seemed to me that Sigma six sold less. It ended quickly, we returned to 3 3/4 and it did see a lot of clearences etc. Sigma six toys seemed to linger everywhere as well after they were canceled (except for the few popular ones) the reason i'm asking is that the movie really seems to be more sigma six than whats out now, if what is out now is selling more would they have went that way? Then again, i still think this, and sigma six, is an attempt to make Joes less "solider" less "all-american" to reach an international audience and to offend less folks. I can't blame hasbro for that, this is a captilist economy for the time being, i just don't like it myself :(

 

I also remember hearing that VVV didn't sell poorly, just Less than it had hoped for and that Sales grew during the end of the line. I really wish i had that source! Cause toys continue to be a declining market.

 

I think something a lot of folks need to remember about Sigma 6 was that the figures started at $9.99 apiece, up to $19.99 (or more depending on where you were buying them). They were expensive toys to collect, and I suspect that, more than anything led to their downfall. They just weren't a line that parents who were used to buying little figures for $4.99-$7.99 were going to buy in large numbers. A parent who might buy two 3 3/4" scale figures isn't likely to buy two Sigma 6 figures at one time.

 

The toys were very cool, and lots of fun, but I don't think it was the "style" or the themes of Sigma 6 that killed it...more like the pricepoints.

 

I would agree if i didn't have a little brother 7 1/2 years younger than me. He got a video game at that cost used at game stop at the very least once a month. That kid is spoiled btw. Video games cost more and parents are shelling out for them. I saw a survery recently saying in the past 10 years spending on kids has gone up 200%. (It was on the news, i'm too lazy to goggle)

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I know everyone here complained alot more about the stuff that came before the 25th Anniversary stuff. @lol@ Seriously,I'm going with the current stuff. I'm going by the fact that with all of the other stuff,you could find just about everywhere. I'm talking places like Wal-Mart and Target,places like KBs and TRU,drug stores like CVS and Rite-Aid,grocery stores like Kroger and Aldi's and the dollar stores like Dollar General and Family Dollar. And for the most part,they just sat there. With the current stuff, if you can find them only places like K-Mart,Wal-Mart,Target, and TRU have them.

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I know everyone here complained alot more about the stuff that came before the 25th Anniversary stuff. @lol@ Seriously,I'm going with the current stuff. I'm going by the fact that with all of the other stuff,you could find just about everywhere. I'm talking places like Wal-Mart and Target,places like KBs and TRU,drug stores like CVS and Rite-Aid,grocery stores like Kroger and Aldi's and the dollar stores like Dollar General and Family Dollar. And for the most part,they just sat there. With the current stuff, if you can find them only places like K-Mart,Wal-Mart,Target, and TRU have them.

 

Do you realize you just defeated your own argument?

 

If JvC/Sigma 6 was being carried by more retailers...then from Hasbro's perspective, it was selling better.

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How? If they just sat there the first time around? Do you see this stuff everywhere now? Point I'm trying to make is that even though only a smaller number of stores carry the 25th Anniversary stuff,there isn't as much sitting on the shelves as the earlier ones.

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The reason i'm asking is that it really seemed to me that Sigma six sold less. It ended quickly, we returned to 3 3/4 and it did see a lot of clearences etc. Sigma six toys seemed to linger everywhere as well after they were canceled (except for the few popular ones) the reason i'm asking is that the movie really seems to be more sigma six than whats out now, if what is out now is selling more would they have went that way? Then again, i still think this, and sigma six, is an attempt to make Joes less "solider" less "all-american" to reach an international audience and to offend less folks. I can't blame hasbro for that, this is a captilist economy for the time being, i just don't like it myself :(

 

I also remember hearing that VVV didn't sell poorly, just Less than it had hoped for and that Sales grew during the end of the line. I really wish i had that source! Cause toys continue to be a declining market.

 

I think something a lot of folks need to remember about Sigma 6 was that the figures started at $9.99 apiece, up to $19.99 (or more depending on where you were buying them). They were expensive toys to collect, and I suspect that, more than anything led to their downfall. They just weren't a line that parents who were used to buying little figures for $4.99-$7.99 were going to buy in large numbers. A parent who might buy two 3 3/4" scale figures isn't likely to buy two Sigma 6 figures at one time.

 

The toys were very cool, and lots of fun, but I don't think it was the "style" or the themes of Sigma 6 that killed it...more like the pricepoints.

 

I would agree if i didn't have a little brother 7 1/2 years younger than me. He got a video game at that cost used at game stop at the very least once a month. That kid is spoiled btw. Video games cost more and parents are shelling out for them. I saw a survery recently saying in the past 10 years spending on kids has gone up 200%. (It was on the news, i'm too lazy to goggle)

that doesn't mean anything. just because parents will pay $40 for a video game when all games cost the same doesn't mean they'll pay $15 for an action figure when they see other action figures that are less. price alone isn't the factor. you can't ignore the factors that dispute your conclusion.

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How? If they just sat there the first time around? Do you see this stuff everywhere now? Point I'm trying to make is that even though only a smaller number of stores carry the 25th Anniversary stuff,there isn't as much sitting on the shelves as the earlier ones.

they didn't just sit there. you might be right, but your position loses credibility when you have to exaggerate to make it.

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How? If they just sat there the first time around? Do you see this stuff everywhere now? Point I'm trying to make is that even though only a smaller number of stores carry the 25th Anniversary stuff,there isn't as much sitting on the shelves as the earlier ones.

 

Because Hasbro makes its' money when it sells it to the retailers, not to the consumers (retailers sell to the consumers, not Hasbro). Unless all that product was sent back to Hasbro (unlikely), Hasbro made most of its' money when the various retail outlets agreed to buy X number of cases from them. Yeah, it's a little more complex then that, but on a basic level that's how it tends to work.

 

Hasbro making money is about product volume, not about individual items being bought at the store level (and there are at least a few pegwarmers for the 25A line just about everywhere that carries them now, so...) If there is less product getting out there overall, then Hasbro's making less money on the product.

 

Lemme give you an example:

 

Hasbro makes, say, fifty-thousand cases of Valor Vs. Venom figures, ships them to various retailers. By the time all is said and done, about thirty five thousand cases sell through quickly, and the rest linger much longer or are eventually clearanced out (in reality probably less than that, but just for the sake of argument....) This gives the appearance of heavy pegwarming on the line.

 

Hasbro makes twenty-five thousand cases of 25A figures, and they all sell through quickly (in reality not true given that there -are- pegwarmers on the line now). This gives the appearance that the line is a super-hot seller. But once you break down the numbers it's more a matter of supply and demand more closely "mirroring up."

 

Valor vs. Venom cases successfully sold quickly - 35000

25A cases successfully sold quickly - 25000

 

In this (hypothetical) example, Valor vs. Venom sold 10,000 more cases than 25A, but still looked as though it wasn't selling as quickly. That's how Valor vs. Venom/Jvc/Etc... could have "outsold" 25A overall and still had product on shelves. That's the same reason Transformers and Star Wars are much more successful lines than 25A G.I. Joe even though you can usually find a good amount of product on shelves for both those lines.

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I agree with the fact that the ultimate truth is within Hasbro's knowledge and that's something that's not normally released publicly.

 

As much as I've been to the stores over the past few years I find it believe that VvV sold better than the 25th assortments. We could speculate all day from various angles about this or that but there are a lot of different strategies that Hasbro could be using to milk this line for all it's worth and their stock holders expect that out of them.

 

As far as the movie costumes going. Again speculation but it could be true that the designs where somehow inspired from Sigma Six styling. It would seem realistic that someone has been working on the art direction for a good while before filming started which probably put it in the time frame of Sigma Six. Or it could just be a Hollywood thing where they have to do it their way because their research shows x, y, and z while the fans complain about reasons c, g, and h forgetting that they are not the only audience who will see this movie.

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  • 2 months later...

Well, while this source doesn't state how successful Sigma 6 toyline was, a line at the main G.I. Joe entry over at Wikipedia does quote:

 

"The entire 8" product line was canceled by the end of 2007, although Hasbro considers the 8" figures a success and may revisit the scale in the future."

 

Sounds to me that Hasbro still considered the Sigma Scale to be pretty successful. Maybe not the same type of success as RAH and even the current 25th Anniversity, but still successful. And who knows how successful their expectations for Sigma 6 were going to be. Here's the link for the Simga 6 Entry at the main G.I. Joe page of Wikipedia, which mentions the above quote at the last sentence:

 

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Joe#Sigm...E2.80.932007.29

 

An interesting thought has just occured to me. When the 25th Anniversity line was released 1st back in 2007, seems that it meant for something that would be a limited time, and with only a few figures, so the success and the response from fans of the line seemed to have been a huge surprise to them. So much so, they expanded on it. This info is based on various message board posts, G.I. Joe fan sites, and Hasbro at some point.

 

My thought is that, what if the 25th Anniversity wasn't a success for whatever reason? Would we still see 4" figures, a new direction for G.I. Joe(Instead of redone figures in 25th Anniversity style), a return back to the 8" Sigma scale, maybe 6" scale figures(Remember, 6" was still considered "The Scale" at the time thanks to Marvel Legends and Mattel's 6" DC lines), no G.I. Joe toys until the time of the movie(The early stages of the movie were probably happening at this time), or something else?

 

Remember, nothing is ever really a sure 100% thing when you are in the business of selling "Wants" stuff(Meaning you only want items such as toys, jewerly, and most electronics, but you really don't need it to survive. Important Needs are stuff like food, water, electricity, and roof over your head), especially when based on the "Nostalgic".

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The reason why toy companies do not like to give out production numbers is proprietary.

We've heard that before, but what does it mean?

 

This is what it means:

 

If a toy company revealed that they made 100,000 units ( for example) of each toy, a competitor could take that information and use it to their own advantage.

They can do that by turning around and offering the retailer carrying that other line a better deal ( wholesale cost per unit) on a different toy-line the competitor wants to get into stores.

Retailers have only so much physical space to stock goods, even if they add stores--the space ( or footprint) is not very large.

 

The more of a given company's products that are sold at a given retailer, the bigger the overall footprint they have. Companies with a very small footprint will have their products delayed or even denied space on the shelves, unless they offer even better wholesale prices to get what they have stocked.

Obviously, there's a point of diminishing returns at work if you try to undercut the other guy without having enough income stream from your products being sold.

 

Additionally, if a company starts losing some of its footprint it can be very hard to regain the lost shelf space. Some companies have the clout to negotiate for a set amount of space on the shelves, effectively pushing competitors out of the market.

The infamous "pink aisle" of Mattel Barbie products is a classic example, as very few competitors have been able to overcome ( or even match) Barbie's brand dominance.

 

Think of a footprint as being like a beachead.

In the case of of a company with a large footprint, they "hold" a sizeable beachead and can front more of one product ( if its popular) and less of another ( if its not). If GIJOE becomes more popular than Transformers for a while, they can have more space devoted to GIJOE as a result.

( Next time you go to the toy aisle, make note of how many Hasbro products are actually on the shelves, and how much overall space Hasbro has compared to other companies)

 

As a result, production numbers are VERY political in the toy industry--because they simply give away too much about how a company is doing with a given brand.

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To add to that: The various retailers don't likely know how much of a given product their competitors have ordered. So giving out the total numbers would allow the retailers to have a better idea overall of how a line is selling. In some cases this could be good (if a line is selling very well across all major retailers), but in others it could lead to lines getting axed prematurely (for instance, if Target and TRU order 20000 units, but Wal-Mart only orders 10000, that's likely to make retailers lose confidence in the long-term viability of the line).

 

A bit of a shell game, sure, but hey, that's business.

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Not really? It just seems like a lot of people are somewhat misinformed and tend to believe that just because they can't find a given product on-shelves easily that it's a raging success. That isn't necessarily the case, particularly when the item in question isn't heavily produced or heavily ordered to begin with.

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