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As close as I've gotten to official confermation...


clonekiller72
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Hey, that's my site! I wrote that!

 

The article is about Icons, not the standard Marvel Legends line. I thought it was pretty clear that I was just posting about the cancellation of the Icons line, and then speculating for the sake of discussion on what that might bode for Marvel Legends proper. Those who made it through to the end would have seen the "I hope we'll find out something for sure at NYCC" line. Shrug.

 

Wow this is cool, to actually have the person that wrote the article tell thier side of the story. See the article was just for disscussion and we should stop worrying, even Longroad admits that we should wait until NYCC. Which is 3 days away by the way.

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GREAT NEWS!!!!

 

If true, it confirms everything that one of this board's most insightful members has been saying for quite some time...Something about Hasbro slowly phasing-out purely comic-based LEGENDS and replacing the 6" comic line with movie-based 6" figures of Marvel characters.

 

Based on the amount of Marvel movies being cranked-out in Hollywood, it certainly makes sense. LEGENDS was only good for 3, maybe 4 waves per year even with the GREAT Toy-Biz.

 

If Marvel has 2-3 comic movies coming out for the next several years, it makes sense (from a business perspective) that you want to tie your merchandising closely to your films; there's simply more $$ potential there, since kids who aren't necessarily fans of the comics will still want the movie figs.

 

After all, HASBRO's biggest success has come primarily from the MASSIVE sale of movie-related figures and merchandise (anyone ever hear of something called "Star Wars"???). Looks like the suits at Marvel Entertainment want to emulate that success, and carry it forward in sequel after sequel.

 

THEREFORE...look for less and less purely "comic-based" LEGENDS (eventually NONE), and more and more movie-based Marvel figs.

 

If true, of course...If not...Well, that'd be peachy, too!

 

Now...Who was that very bright, insightful board member?

 

#US1#

 

IMST

IF true... which it likely isn't, said board member would be less in the 'insightful' category and more in the 'I hate everything Hasbro and expect the worst'. Even if that actually came to something months after the fact, it really doesn't mean a whole lot.

 

Besides, said board member is so used to patting himself on the back for every little thing he says or does, I doubt any of us could do it correctly.

 

You need to see the BIG picture.

 

Before I show you, let me comment on a few points:

 

1. I don't hate EVERYTHING Hasbro...Just most things pertaining to Hasbro's handling of the Marvel license...Which, if you're a fan and/or collector of Marvel Legends, should be disappointing, given the clearly delineated blue-print for success that Toy-Biz drafted.

 

2. I'm insightful because I'm realistic...And because I have lots of experience in marketing and sales. By reading the proverbial tea-leaves, and observing the behavior of Hasbro, I'm pretty sure that I've deduced the future of Marvel Legends.

 

(...And let's be REAL clear. This didn't happen in a vacuum. Marvel didn't give Hasbro the license and then discover, as if by magic, that movie toys, by golly, sell REALLY WELL! They observed and studied the success of the Star Wars franchise, decided they wanted a piece of that action, so to speak, and decided that TOY-BIZ did not have the capability to pull that off.)

 

3. I would think that my insight actually means a whole lot, especially on this board! You do realize, after all, that this is a message board dedicated to discussions on toys based on Marvel comics characters, right?? If so, you should be interested in my insight, NOT because it affects either Marvel or Hasbro's decisions, but because it reveals the nature of those decisions, and the impact on the fan-base. Hopefully, that makes sense...

 

4. Fans < Customers...Or, to put it another way, "fans" are great, but "customers" are better. Marvel stands to make waaaaaay more $$ by selling movie toys to a wide base of customers than they do by selling to a dedicated but small base of fans...Thus, movie figs are more important to the bottom line than standard Legends.

 

Finally...And here's the BIG picture...I might pat myself on the back...And that may be annoying (or amusing, depending on your point of view, or sense of humor), but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

Sorry...But sometimes, the annoying, smarty-pants guy is right. I'm betting that this is one of those times.

#US1#

 

IMST

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I just can’t see this being correct. They have to understand how many people they’d lose if they entirely phased out comic oriented characters and likenesses. That would be a terrible idea. Hasbro would kill Marvel Legends. So many have little to zero interest in marvel movie figures - me being one of them. Fact of the matter is, I’d go as far as to say that everyone on this board seems to be most interested in the comic based lines. Why “fix” something that isn’t broken? Well…I guess that’s debatable. Hasbro already broke ML’s for some. But you get my point nonetheless. If ML’s becomes film based…they’ve lost me as a customer.

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I just can’t see this being correct. They have to understand how many people they’d lose if they entirely phased out comic oriented characters and likenesses. That would be a terrible idea. Hasbro would kill Marvel Legends. So many have little to zero interest in marvel movie figures - me being one of them. Fact of the matter is, I’d go as far as to say that everyone on this board seems to be most interested in the comic based lines. Why “fix” something that isn’t broken? Well…I guess that’s debatable. Hasbro already broke ML’s for some. But you get my point nonetheless. If ML’s becomes film based…they’ve lost me as a customer.

 

They've already lost me. I spend FAR less on Marvel figures now than I did between '01-'06. I pretty much skipped all of HML 3, and I have no intention of ever buying a HASBRO Spider-man figure, 5" or 6" or whatever.

 

But the point is that MARVEL and HASBRO gain more "part-time" customers with movie figures than they lose with by alienating dedicated comics "fans".

 

It's a business decision, and from that stand-point, it makes sense.

 

Sucks for us collectors, but there it is. In all honesty, it was in the cards since HASBRO grabbed the license.

 

#US1#

 

IMST

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Before I show you, let me comment on a few points:

 

1. I don't hate EVERYTHING Hasbro...Just most things pertaining to Hasbro's handling of the Marvel license...Which, if you're a fan and/or collector of Marvel Legends, should be disappointing, given the clearly delineated blue-print for success that Toy-Biz drafted.

 

2. I'm insightful because I'm realistic...And because I have lots of experience in marketing and sales. By reading the proverbial tea-leaves, and observing the behavior of Hasbro, I'm pretty sure that I've deduced the future of Marvel Legends.

 

(...And let's be REAL clear. This didn't happen in a vacuum. Marvel didn't give Hasbro the license and then discover, as if by magic, that movie toys, by golly, sell REALLY WELL! They observed and studied the success of the Star Wars franchise, decided they wanted a piece of that action, so to speak, and decided that TOY-BIZ did not have the capability to pull that off.)

 

3. I would think that my insight actually means a whole lot, especially on this board! You do realize, after all, that this is a message board dedicated to discussions on toys based on Marvel comics characters, right?? If so, you should be interested in my insight, NOT because it affects either Marvel or Hasbro's decisions, but because it reveals the nature of those decisions, and the impact on the fan-base. Hopefully, that makes sense...

 

4. Fans < Customers...Or, to put it another way, "fans" are great, but "customers" are better. Marvel stands to make waaaaaay more $$ by selling movie toys to a wide base of customers than they do by selling to a dedicated but small base of fans...Thus, movie figs are more important to the bottom line than standard Legends.

 

Finally...And here's the BIG picture...I might pat myself on the back...And that may be annoying (or amusing, depending on your point of view, or sense of humor), but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

Sorry...But sometimes, the annoying, smarty-pants guy is right. I'm betting that this is one of those times.

[/size]

#US1#

 

IMST

 

You’re certainly not being realistic. If anything, you‘re the most delusional one. Truth of the matter is…we’re taking your “insight” for what it actually is. It’s an assumption, and assumptions are not factual. Stop claiming it's anything more. If you're correct, by chance, it will be pure blind luck. There's no use in arguing hypothetical predictions. You sound like some immature little boy that’s claiming his daddy said something, thusly it must be true. Please! Your opinion is no more valid here then anyone else’s. We’re taking your opinion for what it’s worth. It’s a grain of salt and nothing more. I appriciate the post, but these are all opinions. Stop thinking you're any better, you're not. Unless you’re psychic, secret member of the X-men, your opinion isn‘t any more reliable. Face fact. You're not going to get any respect by having skewed logic and arrogance. Stop egotistically building yourself into something you’re not. You’re not a Hasbro rep, you're taking a stab in the dark. I mean no disrespect, but common dude...

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Before I show you, let me comment on a few points:

 

1. I don't hate EVERYTHING Hasbro...Just most things pertaining to Hasbro's handling of the Marvel license...Which, if you're a fan and/or collector of Marvel Legends, should be disappointing, given the clearly delineated blue-print for success that Toy-Biz drafted.

 

2. I'm insightful because I'm realistic...And because I have lots of experience in marketing and sales. By reading the proverbial tea-leaves, and observing the behavior of Hasbro, I'm pretty sure that I've deduced the future of Marvel Legends.

 

(...And let's be REAL clear. This didn't happen in a vacuum. Marvel didn't give Hasbro the license and then discover, as if by magic, that movie toys, by golly, sell REALLY WELL! They observed and studied the success of the Star Wars franchise, decided they wanted a piece of that action, so to speak, and decided that TOY-BIZ did not have the capability to pull that off.)

 

3. I would think that my insight actually means a whole lot, especially on this board! You do realize, after all, that this is a message board dedicated to discussions on toys based on Marvel comics characters, right?? If so, you should be interested in my insight, NOT because it affects either Marvel or Hasbro's decisions, but because it reveals the nature of those decisions, and the impact on the fan-base. Hopefully, that makes sense...

 

4. Fans < Customers...Or, to put it another way, "fans" are great, but "customers" are better. Marvel stands to make waaaaaay more $$ by selling movie toys to a wide base of customers than they do by selling to a dedicated but small base of fans...Thus, movie figs are more important to the bottom line than standard Legends.

 

Finally...And here's the BIG picture...I might pat myself on the back...And that may be annoying (or amusing, depending on your point of view, or sense of humor), but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

Sorry...But sometimes, the annoying, smarty-pants guy is right. I'm betting that this is one of those times.

[/size]

#US1#

 

IMST

 

You’re certainly not being realistic. If anything, you‘re the most delusional one. Truth of the matter is…we’re taking your “insight” for what it actually is. It’s an assumption, and assumptions are not factual. Stop claiming it's anything more. If you're correct, by chance, it will be pure blind luck. There's no use in arguing hypothetical predictions. You sound like some immature little boy that’s claiming his daddy said something, thusly it must be true. Please! Your opinion is no more valid here then anyone else’s. We’re taking your opinion for what it’s worth. It’s a grain of salt and nothing more. I appriciate the post, but these are all opinions. Stop thinking you're any better, you're not. Unless you’re psychic, secret member of the X-men, your opinion isn‘t any more reliable. Face fact. You're not going to get any respect by having skewed logic and arrogance. Stop egotistically building yourself into something you’re not. You’re not a Hasbro rep, you're taking a stab in the dark. I mean no disrespect, but common dude...

 

Wow...Glad you mean no disrespect...

 

As I've already explained, my opinion is based on professional experience. Therefore, if correct, it will not be based on "blind luck". Therefore, it is more valid than those based on pure ignorance, or wishful thinking. Not all posts are opinions; some are based on facts.

 

Also, since you felt free to characterize me, I'll return the favor:

 

You sound like an intellectual wanna-be who can't stand the fact that someone else in the room is smarter than him.

 

Respect? Sorry, "Dude", but if I cared about "respect" as it is apparently defined on this board, I'd stick to posting peurile "Legends I want" and/or more "Wish Lists", as those seem to predominate.

 

What bothers you the most? The fact that I may be right about LEGENDS, or the fact that I know that I may be right about LEGENDS???

 

And who the hell ever said I was a HASBRO Rep?!?!?!? You DON'T have to be a HASBRO-Rep, or even work in the Toy industry to understand the concept commonly referred to as "business cycles".

 

Again, it's all about experience. I have it.

 

Do you?

#US1#

 

IMST

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Honestly, all arrogance aside (and make note that is a LARGE pile to push away) there could be some oil in them there hills (or facts between the back patting and self-high-fiving.) Truly, Hasbro/Marvel would make better on capitalizing their movies and cartoons that are high profile and out there. Also, take note on how promptly all of the movie/cartoon items show up on your local shelves and en masse no less. Iron Man and Hulk movies coming out soon (I doubt we will see a Punisher line at the local Wally-world) and the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon already on TV. Two of the three are everywhere you look (well, as long as you are standing in or near a toy aisle) and I would suspect Hulk will be smashing its way to the store soon also.

 

Thats not saying Marvel Legends is getting deep-sixed entirely or even per se, but precedence would show that Hasbro is much more interested in the wider appeal. Plus, Hasbro has cornered the Movie/Toy market this year. Iron Man? Check. Indiana Jones? Check. The Incredible Hulk? Check. Star Wars: The Clone Wars? Double check. The only BIG summer property they aren't able to cash in on is Batman.

 

Again, it's all about experience. I have it.

 

Out of curiosity - what experience? Probably be easier to understand (or tolerate on occasions) if you elaborated on your experience and insight you constantly soap-box about. If you got it - flaunt it and we know you like to.

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Again, it's all about experience. I have it.

 

Heh, he thinks he's the only one with any kind of experience........LOL!

 

Yawn.

 

 

You're pretty vague and delusional on the experience, pal--and I know that for a fact, based on my own business experience with the animation, comics, computer game design and toy-design/marketing industries, stuff I've been doing since 1985. I've read nothing from you that reveals you have industry experience in any way shape of form in any of those fields, certainly not by the level of maturity you post with in these threads.

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It's official, folks...

 

Hasbro has stated that their marketing department has decided NOT to move forward on either of these lines as they were previously solicited. Not TOO cryptic, eh? Addionally, all of open PO's for these lines have been cancelled by Hasbro.

 

NO details were offered with regard to the FUTURE of these waves (or the line as a whole), so let's not panic just yet...

 

To clarify:

 

THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT EITHER OF THE LINES BEING CANCELLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY. They very carefully chose their words to target "these waves as they were originally offered" (summarized) rather than the lines as onging entities.

 

All open pre-orders placed through CSC have been cancelled. If you had a prepaid pre-order (PayPal, Money Order), refunds are already being processed.

 

Hopefully Hasbro will have some good news forthcoming regarding the future of these lines. We'll keep you posted if we hear anything.

 

Thanks!

Thomas

CSC

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Well, Cornerstore Comics has reported that Hasbro has said about HML4 and Icons that they do not plan to persue those specific lines "as they were".

 

 

They didn't say the lines themselves were cancelled, so they could be retooling. Man, imagine the uproar if they cancelled Marvel Legends...

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It's official, folks...

 

Hasbro has stated that their marketing department has decided NOT to move forward on either of these lines as they were previously solicited. Not TOO cryptic, eh? Addionally, all of open PO's for these lines have been cancelled by Hasbro.

 

NO details were offered with regard to the FUTURE of these waves (or the line as a whole), so let's not panic just yet...

 

To clarify:

 

THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT EITHER OF THE LINES BEING CANCELLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY. They very carefully chose their words to target "these waves as they were originally offered" (summarized) rather than the lines as onging entities.

 

All open pre-orders placed through CSC have been cancelled. If you had a prepaid pre-order (PayPal, Money Order), refunds are already being processed.

 

Hopefully Hasbro will have some good news forthcoming regarding the future of these lines. We'll keep you posted if we hear anything.

 

Thanks!

Thomas

CSC

 

sound to me like are making some changes in the line up. I hope hml 4 isn't entirely cancelled guess we'll find out thursday.

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It's official, folks...

 

Hasbro has stated that their marketing department has decided NOT to move forward on either of these lines as they were previously solicited. Not TOO cryptic, eh? Addionally, all of open PO's for these lines have been cancelled by Hasbro.

 

NO details were offered with regard to the FUTURE of these waves (or the line as a whole), so let's not panic just yet...

 

To clarify:

 

THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT EITHER OF THE LINES BEING CANCELLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY. They very carefully chose their words to target "these waves as they were originally offered" (summarized) rather than the lines as onging entities.

 

All open pre-orders placed through CSC have been cancelled. If you had a prepaid pre-order (PayPal, Money Order), refunds are already being processed.

 

Hopefully Hasbro will have some good news forthcoming regarding the future of these lines. We'll keep you posted if we hear anything.

 

Thanks!

Thomas

CSC

 

 

Did you really have to post this in the middle of a fight???????

now we shall all wait for lemon heads up his own ass i told you so,which will cause major upheaval.i still have faith in hasbro.and so what if its cancelled,i dont really care since ive got all the figures i need,but i still do want more !!!!!!!!

 

Marvel legends is such a hit,hasbro or another company is bound to continue it (c'mon sota!!!!!!!!)

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you know what really funny is that people act like there won't be any more marvel figures at all. Come on people. Marvel is one of the biggest super hero company in the world there will alway be figure coming out of them. So what if ML get cancel we just have to wait for something new to come along.

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Did you really have to post this in the middle of a fight???????

now we shall all wait for lemon heads up his own ass i told you so,which will cause major upheaval.i still have faith in hasbro.and so what if its cancelled,i dont really care since ive got all the figures i need,but i still do want more !!!!!!!!

 

Marvel legends is such a hit,hasbro or another company is bound to continue it (c'mon sota!!!!!!!!)

 

Take a deep breath and read the post again.

 

Pay attention to:

THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT EITHER OF THE LINES BEING CANCELLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY. They very carefully chose their words to target "these waves as they were originally offered" (summarized) rather than the lines as onging entities.

 

That wording was carefully chosen for a reason--the reason being they are rethinking the line a bit, possibly the line-ups, packaging or gimmicks and did NOT state the Marvel Legends was cancelled outright.

If the line was indeed cancelled, then Hasbro would simply release a statement saying so and that would be that.

That's not taken place.

 

Take another deep breath......go to your serene place. Marvel Legends is not cancelled.

 

There, feel better now?

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what i think is that jesse falco and the rest decided we're getting too much and decided they should cut some choice and put Wolverine and Iron man in the wave LOL ;p

 

seriously though, i think the mest up a figure and need to change it.

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Did you really have to post this in the middle of a fight???????

now we shall all wait for lemon heads up his own ass i told you so,which will cause major upheaval.i still have faith in hasbro.and so what if its cancelled,i dont really care since ive got all the figures i need,but i still do want more !!!!!!!!

 

Marvel legends is such a hit,hasbro or another company is bound to continue it (c'mon sota!!!!!!!!)

 

Take a deep breath and read the post again.

 

Pay attention to:

THEY DID NOT SAY ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT EITHER OF THE LINES BEING CANCELLED IN THEIR ENTIRETY. They very carefully chose their words to target "these waves as they were originally offered" (summarized) rather than the lines as onging entities.

 

That wording was carefully chosen for a reason--the reason being they are rethinking the line a bit, possibly the line-ups, packaging or gimmicks and did NOT state the Marvel Legends was cancelled outright.

If the line was indeed cancelled, then Hasbro would simply release a statement saying so and that would be that.

That's not taken place.

 

Take another deep breath......go to your serene place. Marvel Legends is not cancelled.

 

There, feel better now?

why do you assume i think marvel legends is cancelled.i dont think that at all.i said i still ha\ve faith in hasbro-meaning i still have faith in them that they will continue the line.there is always that chance that it IS cancelled,so the rest of the post was for that.

 

gawd.

 

:P

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why do you assume i think marvel legends is cancelled.i dont think that at all.i said i still ha\ve faith in hasbro-meaning i still have faith in them that they will continue the line.there is always that chance that it IS cancelled,so the rest of the post was for that.

 

gawd.

 

Here, let me high-light something for you:

Marvel legends is such a hit,hasbro or another company is bound to continue it (c'mon sota!!!!!!!!)

 

Not to pick on you or brow-beat you.......but that kind of response is pretty common when someone thinks a toyline is cancelled.

 

Here's something you may or may not be aware of:

Hasbro Toys has the Marvel Entertainment Master toy license for a 5 year contract--subject to renewal after the 5 years is up.

SOTA ( or any other company) has no chance in Hades of picking up the license for all or a portion ( say, just Marvel Legends itself) unless Marvel pays back or severely write-down some of the estimate $250 million to $500 million price that hasbro forked over for the license.

Marvel's financial history ( especially post-bankruptcy) has seen them to be tightifisted with the dollars--so they are VERY UNLIKELY to forsake those dollars.

So just forget about another company ( like SOTA) coming into save Marvel Legends for us--it will not happen.

 

Now, what does that means pertinent to the situation now?

Here's my educated guess: Something about the assortments for HML4 rankled the folks at Hasbro--probably some confidence issues with the stuff. Could be in the look of the final product, could be design issues, could be costs issues.......any number of things.

Given the lead time in making these toys........and the reported recruiting of the Marvel Toys crew ( Jesse Falcon and co.) as consultants/advisors, assisting brand managers........what-have-you.........right NOW ( just pre-Toy-fair to now) would be about the right time to see the line held up to have it go "back to the drawing board" in a sense.

 

Cancelling the PO's ( purchase orders)would be a sensible step, while having whatever is at the factory under go re-tooling etc. Hasbro looks to be DELAYING the next wave(s) not denying them, seeming so that.......something can be addressed with the product.

 

That something could well be different characters, it could be different tooling created ( to add or change articulation) or is could be related to issues with the materials used in the plastic.

Remember last year there was a prominent brouhaha in China over tainted materials in toys.

 

ANY of those above reasons, and more, could be why the lines are delayed and explain why the statements were made as such.

 

I mean, c'mon.........IF the line were cancelled......why would the consumer base NOT be told as such?

So they'd buy into Itsy Bitsy Spiderman or Iron-Potato-head-man instead?

Nah, I don't think Hasbro would chuck their marketing savvy that badly.

Like I said, I'm not trying to brow-beat you or anyone here, but there's nothing to over-react to in this.

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i originally wanted sota to continue the marvel figures,so i posted it because IF the line IS cancelled,they would be my first choice to continue it.you dont NEED to post a full scale article on how my post came across to you.i love the hasbro figures.im sorry if my post made you think i was over reacting and thinking it was cancelled.your really starting to urk me now.

 

I DONT THINK THE LINE IS CANCELLED! I AM NOT OVER REACTING!-maybe that over reaction of how im making you see what i want you to see,will compare to what you saw in my post.

^_^

:P

#US1#

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Again, it's all about experience. I have it.

 

Heh, he thinks he's the only one with any kind of experience........LOL!

 

Yawn.

 

 

You're pretty vague and delusional on the experience, pal--and I know that for a fact, based on my own business experience with the animation, comics, computer game design and toy-design/marketing industries, stuff I've been doing since 1985. I've read nothing from you that reveals you have industry experience in any way shape of form in any of those fields, certainly not by the level of maturity you post with in these threads.

 

The reason you've "read nothing" is because you're not reading carefully. You want to believe that I'm full of crap because that would fit you're pre-ordained worldview. To admit that I might know what I'm talking about (and therefore, know more than you) is obviously upsetting...So you choose to ignore it.

 

Looks like you've been working on the creative side for quite some time. NOTHING wrong with that, I've been doing it myself for 2 years, and it's the most enjoyable work I've ever done.

 

However, most "creative" types don't know squat about what drives business. They look at the economy as a zero-sum game, and have NO idea about how to generate revenue AND turn profits.

 

Want my experience? Fine.

 

MBA

 

Sales Representative: 2 years (pharmaceuticals)

 

Marketing Manager: 5 years (pharmaceuticals); included the launch of multi-million dollar products.

 

Marketing Director: 2 years (Bio-Tech)

 

Account Supervisor: Advertising, Madison Avenue: 2 years

 

Copy Supervisor: Advertising, Madison Avenue: 2 years

 

Now, since you're predictable, the first thing you'll say is "BS, I don't believe it!"

 

Fine. Whatever. The next thing you'll say is: "That's NOT toys or games!!!"

 

To which I'll respond: "No kidding." But if you spend enough time in sales, marketing, and advertising with Fortune 500 companies, you pretty much understand how things work...

 

Ok, sporty...You wanted to play in the sand-box. Got a shovel??

#US1#

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Cancelling the line for now means they are rethinking of how to repackage the product. Since the BAF style of merchandising could have outlived its purpose, as there are now less and less buyers of the whole wave to complete the build-a-figure set. They could be rethinking the paradigm of issuing a wave revolving around the build the figure. That is probably why they are experimenting with 2 packs and see what the response and returns are going to be. The first Cable/ Marvel Girl set looked like a mixed result and same with Domino, Cannonball. They are looking for the right mix and a new product presentation to roll-out that could spark new interest in the line. And they brought in Jesse Falcon (a comic nut) for that purpose. So for now themed waves seem to be a trend until they really figure out what they really want to do. Also a few leaks here and there of their protos to see where the feedback is going to be from hardcore fans.

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