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Old Joes vs New Joes....Serious Debate


imthebigdawg
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Well, in my opinion. . .when you're in a forum where there are no absolute opinions, then the only wrong opinion is the one pushed on everyone else as an absolute (i.e. a vain power-trip).

 

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20070502.html

 

Thus, as an individual--I am totally free to assert that fans who continually claim to have no emotional ties to ARAH render their own opinions invalid. :D

 

I can also assert that fans who claim to have no emotional ties to the product, but at the same time post here every day, are displaying the most absurd form of contradictory (or if you choose "irrational") behavior.

 

-PJ

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well, I cannot deny that some of the new stuff is lacking, the hands particularly , it is almost like that was the last thing they designed and they were in a hurry, I would change the hands.

 

I would rather compare the 25th Anniversery Stuff to the VvV or JVC or maybe even the TRU Exclusives,

 

If I'm hearing you right, it's as if some wish to make mountains out of molehills. I agree that arguing a few minor flaws with the 25th figs (like say, Flint's gloves) are not even within the ballpark of comparison with say. . .a VvV Alley Viper.

 

Nitpick? No problem.

 

"SUCKS". . .? Well now then you're just being silly. Remember that in order to push a personal negative agenda, it is necessary to wildly exaggerate the little flaws in the thing you wish to attack.

 

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20070528.html

 

Throw-away one-word labels and stuff like that.

 

-PJ

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I jsut don't understand why GI Joe fans are so incredibly picky. I mean, these new 25th figures are far away the best ever in terms of detailing, quality, articulation and paint apps. I truly like the RAH stuff, like I said, I spent thousands re-buying all the original figures 5 years ago, they are great. BUT.... they really dont look as good as the new stuff. Not by a long shot.

 

I agree completely. Whereas I have a sincere childhood nostalgic attachment to the old figures (down to the O-rings and rivets), I'm not blind to the fact that the 25th toys are an homage to the characters at a level of detail that the old figures couldn't reach at the time.

 

I had an art instructor in college that told me something that I'll never forget. "You must learn to separate your ability to recognize skill from your personal preferences."

 

The oldskool ARAH is like family to me, but at the same time I give credit where credit is due on the 25th figures. The designers are fans like we are (some even the same age in fact) and they busted their asses on this project.

 

It's incorrect to mischaracterize them as cigar chomping middle-aged execs who are "out-of-the loop" just looking for a buck. I think this time they really did it for the fans and put in some of the same love that Kirk, Wayne, and Larry put into the originals.

 

-PJ

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I can also assert that fans who claim to have no emotional ties to the product, but at the same time post here every day, are displaying the most absurd form of contradictory (or if you choose "irrational") behavior.

 

What do you mean by "emotional ties"? Childhood memories?

 

I wasn't a child, by a long shot, when the RAH Joes appeared, certainly not when I began collecting them in 1985-86. I was a child of the 60's and had the original 12" Joes. My connection isn't emotional to the figures, its aesethetic, for the more part--a fascination with detail.

Yes, there's some childhood assocations mixed in with that, but there's alot adult sensibilities there too.

I find nothing absurd or contradictory about my behaviors with these toys.

 

There's just no need to question other fans likes or dislikes in any of this--its all personal taste, right?

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A couple of people have made reference to the fact that the O-ring is missing and that its absence takes away from the new 25th figures. However, after hearing about MOC figures who began falling apart due to their O-rings breaking down, I have to wonder if NO O-ring was actually a smart choice. I hope to have these figures forever and would appreciate them not breaking down on their own. What do other people think of this?

 

I've had some figures that fell apart from the O-ring rotting and breaking. I've left a few of the vehicle drivers in their vehicles (they come with) and years later have gone in and removed them and they were in two pieces. I should add though, that out of all my hyndreds upon hundreds of figures I've collected, this has happened maybe to half a dozen of them, and it was after some time in storage, in the heat and other conditions, and not right out of the package, like you see some of the newer O-ring figures doing.

 

Hasbro seem s to being going cheaper all around?

 

These new 25th figures will certainly have their weaknesses in parts and plastic and I don't think they'll stand the test of time as well as an old O-ring by itself would. An eBay of these new figures, 25 years from now, will likely have missing heads, hands and other extremities which would be as hard to find Loose but COMPLETE as it is to find a Heavy Metal with his mic. ^_^

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well, I cannot deny that some of the new stuff is lacking, the hands particularly , it is almost like that was the last thing they designed and they were in a hurry, I would change the hands.

 

I would rather compare the 25th Anniversery Stuff to the VvV or JVC or maybe even the TRU Exclusives,

 

If I'm hearing you right, it's as if some wish to make mountains out of molehills. I agree that arguing a few minor flaws with the 25th figs (like say, Flint's gloves) are not even within the ballpark of comparison with say. . .a VvV Alley Viper.

 

Nitpick? No problem.

 

"SUCKS". . .? Well now then you're just being silly. Remember that in order to push a personal negative agenda, it is necessary to wildly exaggerate the little flaws in the thing you wish to attack.

 

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20070528.html

 

Throw-away one-word labels and stuff like that.

 

-PJ

 

 

I say your being silly. Your sitting there trying to say someone can't think they suck because you say so?? Im sorry but the world doesnt work that way. Someone can feel they suck and that opinion is no more right or wrong then yours that says they dont suck. What everyone needs to except is that each person is entitled to their own opinion and when that opinion isn't the same as yours, quit acting as if its some kind of personal attack on you.

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What do you mean by "emotional ties"? Childhood memories?

 

That's a part of it. But you're also a fan of the characters, right?

 

There's just no need to question other fans likes or dislikes in any of this--its all personal taste, right?

 

I don't think you see the same absurdity that I do. For example. I have an in-law that I met at a family reunion. He was wearing the Superman shirt with the big "S" logo on it. So, attempting to strike up a conversation, I asked him if he was into Superman.

 

"No, not really." He said. #WTF#

 

He just thought wearing the shirt looked, "cool". <_<

 

So you have a valid point in the sense that while "aesthetic fans" do exist, that's all they are. I'm not trying to start a "true fan" argument (gawd forbid). What I am saying is that hypothetically, if you don't care about the characters, toss the files in the trash, and hate on anything new that comes out. . .what are you here for? Why even bother to participate in the new threads? Why not just discuss the old Joe threads?

 

If I were doing such a thing, my only conclusion would be that I am:

 

(a.) Possibly starved for attention.

 

OR

 

(b.) On a single-minded campaign to "tear down" everything due to my sense of. . .[blank].

 

"Nostalgia" perhaps? @hmmm@ That can't be it.

 

But the problem with the nostalgia motive though, is some of these guys never even played with the figures to begin with. So then one could only conclude that this is a some new form of embedded troll. Hate for hate's sake. The opportunity to play a dominant role in any online community that will permit it.

 

Take myself for example. I was an adolescent when the first wave of TMNT figures came out. Aesthetically speaking, I think they're all "cool" and everything, but I don't follow the comics, the toon, or the plot. I have even been tempted to buy the figures a few times just because oh, I dunno. . .I think they "look cool."

 

Does that make me a TMNT fan though, just because I would slap a few bucks down on a figure or a logo T-shirt?

 

I think. . .such a claim would be dishonest, that being simply my own opinion with all opinions being equal.

 

Furthermore, for me to still dishonestly claim to be a TMNT fan and then to go on the TMNT boards just to tear apart their latest waves and other fans who like 'em. . .would be the absolute height of douchebaggery.

 

But to exceed even that level of rudeness? Wow, I'd have to really have a pair to actually guilt-trip anyone and everyone who questions me by saying essentially, "How dare you question another fan?"

 

-PJ

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What everyone needs to except is that each person is entitled to their own opinion and when that opinion isn't the same as yours, quit acting as if its some kind of personal attack on you.

while agree with that 100%, at some point, for any conversation to really have any meaning, topics need to be discussed objectively, and not dependent on subjective criteria such as opinions. the figures themselves should be the point of conversation, not our opinions.

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I say your being silly. Your sitting there trying to say someone can't think they suck because you say so??

 

Not at all. Allow me to clarify. They can't say they suck at the same level of "suckery". That is to say, they would have to try much harder to make a hate list on a 25th Cobra Trooper than they would for a VvV Alley Viper or butt-plug Duke.

 

-PJ

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That's a part of it. But you're also a fan of the characters, right?

 

Only a couple. Snake-eyes, maybe one or two others. Seriously, I see a lot of them as more like artifacts than characters.

 

I don't think you see the same absurdity that I do. For example. I have an in-law that I met at a family reunion. He was wearing the Superman shirt with the big "S" logo on it. So, attempting to strike up a conversation, I asked him if he was into Superman.

 

"No, not really." He said.

 

So you have a valid point in the sense that while "aesthetic fans" do exist, that's all they are. I'm not trying to start a "true fan" argument (gawd forbid). What I am saying is that hypothetically, if you don't care about the characters, toss the files in the trash, and hate on anything new that comes out. . .what are you here for? Why even bother to participate in the new threads? Why not just discuss the old Joe threads?

 

Well, I'm a cartoonist............who does not like cartoons. Rather, I do not like watching them.

I like other aspects of them; the design, the act of creating them, the artistry involved--but not things like their subject matter or premises( for example).

People do express surprise at that, but honestly...........I don't care. Its how I am.

Fickleness and taste come in all forms--that is just very human, and I personally claim to be nothing less.

 

Its the same thing with GIJOE. I do not like most of the original figures (as characters or as figures now)--but I like some of the vehicles.

I still like something about GIJOE, and for me, that's all the cachet anyone needs to be a fan.

Let's face it, not everyone is a gastronome, but they can love food. No other qualifier is needed.

 

Hell, they sold a 12" Adventure Team GIJOE at Hot Topic--a store that does NOT have a regular clientele of 30 and 40 something year-old guys walking in all the time( who'd you'd think would be the targeted consumers....). They considered the item to be a kitschy retro thing that would appeal to younger consumers, simply because its kitschy and retro.

Most of the consumers patronizing Hot Topic were not even biologically viable when the Adventure Team figures were sold in the 70's. The same could be said for young fans of Marilyn Monroe, Frank Sinatra or Jim Morrison. There's people who see them as cool, simply because they were once just that; cool--that kind of after-the-fact fandom has long been around. What's the point in questioning it?

 

If we take the idea to another extreme ( opposite of fans being selective) then we'd need to criticize fans that are not selective at all. Fans who love GIJOE Extreme, and all the other GIJOE "abberations" and spin-offs, should be just as cirtiqued for liking "too much" of it.

Of course, THAT is absurd.

A fan is a fan, and there's no measure that need be taken.

 

The folks that are in these kinds of discussion for attention, usually slip up and try attention-getting ploys soley for that sake. There's another thread in another forum here on TNI with just such a poster , that I know of.

No-one in this thread is doing that.

 

Yet.

 

So, no. I do not see the absurdity here. I see selective tastes at work, and people entitled to just that.

Liking something doesn't need to have qualifiers attached to it, certainly not for anyone outside of oneself.

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What everyone needs to except is that each person is entitled to their own opinion and when that opinion isn't the same as yours, quit acting as if its some kind of personal attack on you.

while agree with that 100%, at some point, for any conversation to really have any meaning, topics need to be discussed objectively, and not dependent on subjective criteria such as opinions. the figures themselves should be the point of conversation, not our opinions.

 

RIGHT! That's all I'm saying.

 

I could be a total weasel and spend all day here hitting and running, hitting and running--to tear down the figures with nothing more than "sucks", "cool" and "you're stifling my right to opinion." That's all I need.

 

It's manipulative and inflammatory.

 

-PJ

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apointstoheadtr8.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ANYWAY.....

 

 

 

 

I'm one that has admitted to lacking the SAME "emotional attachments" to these toys as what a kid who grew up playing with them and idolizing all the great characters involved with the mythos surrounding ARAH, thru the cartoons, comics and filecards. I was too old I guess for that same level of appreciation for all that is ARAH G.I.Joe, but nevertheless...I became of fan of the toys anyway, just based on my own emotional attachments to G.I.JOE as a whole (I played with the original 12" figures in my youth) I thought they were cool little versions of the larger counterparts and even though I didn't have the SAME emotional attachment to the characters as a kid PLAYING with them, I envied the whole atmosphere it created for YOU. I only had my own imagination to guide my play adventures in the backyard with either unnamed "Adventurers" or those little green army men, and I viewed the ARAH line as a combination of BOTH, with even more bad guys made for it, than I ever witnessed thru my years as a kid.

 

It was all very cool I thought, and I wished I was STILL a kid again, to have been able to get into some of those great adventures like I had with mine only with THESE babies! I don't think acknowledging my LACK of (or lesser amount of) "emotional attachment" to all of the mythos, the same as what a young boy growing up then would have, is any reason to put a knock on me as a fan and collector of these great toys, and certainly shouldn't disqualify my opinions or reasons for being a part of the discussions here at TNI...should it?

 

If we're talking about toys, let's talk about the toys. I honestly thought that was the question in the topic? I can give an opinion on the differences in the toys themselves, when compared to each other, and to be honest, I thought laying down a disclaimer that I wasn't "emotionally attached" to all the OLD Joes from the 80's due to nostalgic reasons, was giving merit to my opinion, in the sense that I'm not being negative on the new stuff, just because I'm somehow still "emotionally attached" to the OLD stuff. I feel I'm just looking at the differences from a different perspective, in that those old Joes really impressed me and the new ones don't....plain and simple, nothing melodramatic in that.

 

There's a 25 year gap between the two, and while I'd expect there to be "improvements" made, with all the new technology available now as opposed to then, I don't think all of it is really making the figures all that much better. A lot of changes had already improved upon the line from those first offerings in '82-'83, and even some more changes from '00-'05 made a neat little difference to them. Some not so great, but little touches here and there that really added detail and articulation, which would be the two main ingredients I LOOK for, as an old fart collector of new G.I.Joe toys. It's not comic books vs the cartoons we're debating here, it's the toys...or so I thought?

 

Seems a shame that an effort is even being made to disqualify some folks opinions and reasons for being a fan AT ALL of G.I.Joe ARAH? <_<

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What everyone needs to except is that each person is entitled to their own opinion and when that opinion isn't the same as yours, quit acting as if its some kind of personal attack on you.

while agree with that 100%, at some point, for any conversation to really have any meaning, topics need to be discussed objectively, and not dependent on subjective criteria such as opinions. the figures themselves should be the point of conversation, not our opinions.

 

Maybe, but sometimes people just don't like something for no particular reason. The debate of Rah vs 25th anniversary could go on till infinity and people are still going to have their own opinion. Stating your own opinion is fine, but there gets to be a point where some people can't seem to let it go untill they've changed everyone else's opinion to match their own. Im in the camp who thinks the new 25th Anniversary figures are better then RAH figures, but I can except the fact that regardless of that opinion there are those who think RAH is better, and im perfectly willing to except that. Everyone sees things in their own unique light. Sure if we can come together and share those differences of opinions in a freiendly manner, thats great and thats what these message boards are for, but when it becomes an intense rivalry where people are seeing red after leaving here, thats when things have gone to far.

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Well, I'm a cartoonist............who does not like cartoons. Rather, I do not like watching them.

I like other aspects of them, design, the act of creating them, the artistry involved--but not things like their subject matter or premises( for example).

 

Sorry, you need to re-configure the example. Cartooning is a medium that takes many-many forms. It's even blurred with standard animation so much that it's hard to tell where one begins or ends. Cartoons do not have an inherent subject matter or premesis other than that which is created with the cartooning form.

 

I'm saying that either there is a cartoon you do like or it hasn't been made to your standard yet. But at least being in the business you would be able to define that standard against something?

 

Its the same thing with GIJOE. I do not like most of the original figures (as characters or as figures now)--but I like some of the vehicles.

 

Uh, I had asked you earlier if. . .

 

I still like something about GIJOE, and for me, that's all the cachet anyone needs to be a fan.

Let's face it, not everyone is a gastronome, but they can love food. No other qualifier is needed.

 

But at the same time it drives the chef nuts. You're putting the food he spent years in school to prepare on the same level as well, a sammich with Miracle Whip. ;)

 

This assertion means that I can simply claim. . .well, anything. I can claim to be a fan of Pink Floyd without having listened to a single track. Of course no one really has to know unless they start quizzing me. I can claim it all day, but in the end I wouldn't be honest with myself. Oh, by the way. . .which one's Pink?

 

Hell, they sold a 12" Adventure Team GIJOE at Hot Topic--a store that does NOT have a regular clientele of 30 and 40 something year-old guys walking in all the time( who'd you'd think would be the targeted consumers....). They considered the item to be a kitschy retro thing that would appeal to younger consumers, simply because its kitschy and retro.

Most of the consumers patronizing Hot Topic were not even biologically viable when the Adventure Team figures were sold in the 70's. The same could be said for young fans of Marilyn Monroe, Frank Sinatra or Jim Morrison--that kind of after-the-fact fandom has long been around. What's the point in questioning it?

 

See above. And you're also arguing the point retroactively with AT. ARAH has things that Hasbro deliberately implemented into the toyline that AT never had.

 

If we take the idea to another extreme ( opposite of fans being selective) then we'd need to. . .(snip)

 

Well, it's a good thing I'm taking the argument only one direction then, isn't it? So you're saying that if I claim to be a fan, I can endlessly poop on anything at will, 100% free of risk of confrontation?

 

I think if I did that, then it would be only fair for others to question, "Gee, wonder if PJ's as much of a fan as he claims to be." Only fair.

 

-PJ

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@hmmm@ Maybe we should remove the words "serious debate" from the title of this topic and replace it with "fun discussion"? I think the seriousness has gotten out of hand? ;)

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Maybe, but sometimes people just don't like something for no particular reason.

 

Good, I agree. This ^^^ means then. . .that these people would then have no reason for liking something.

 

That's all I'm saying. I am only calling a spade a spade here.

 

The debate of Rah vs 25th anniversary could go on till infinity and people are still going to have their own opinion.

 

However, the 25th anninersary collection is a "looped" collectible that is intimately connected to the original ARAH characters. It's an homage thing. Many even claim to see aspects of the Sunbow toon in them.

 

Stating your own opinion is fine, but there gets to be a point where some people can't seem to let it go untill they've changed everyone else's opinion to match their own.

 

You see it clearly as well. Aren't we allowed to oppose and argue against individuals that do just that? Why is it that some are allowed to rub my nose in their opinions and I can't give pound-for-pound?

 

-PJ

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Sure if we can come together and share those differences of opinions in a freiendly manner, thats great and thats what these message boards are for, but when it becomes an intense rivalry where people are seeing red after leaving here, thats when things have gone to far.

 

Well, I said I'd "do it" before.......

 

So if things "go too far" we can always remove the dot.....

 

 

Kensbutt.jpg

 

 

Fear the dot.

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What everyone needs to except is that each person is entitled to their own opinion and when that opinion isn't the same as yours, quit acting as if its some kind of personal attack on you.

while agree with that 100%, at some point, for any conversation to really have any meaning, topics need to be discussed objectively, and not dependent on subjective criteria such as opinions. the figures themselves should be the point of conversation, not our opinions.

 

Maybe, but sometimes people just don't like something for no particular reason. The debate of Rah vs 25th anniversary could go on till infinity and people are still going to have their own opinion. Stating your own opinion is fine, but there gets to be a point where some people can't seem to let it go untill they've changed everyone else's opinion to match their own. Im in the camp who thinks the new 25th Anniversary figures are better then RAH figures, but I can except the fact that regardless of that opinion there are those who think RAH is better, and im perfectly willing to except that. Everyone sees things in their own unique light. Sure if we can come together and share those differences of opinions in a freiendly manner, thats great and thats what these message boards are for, but when it becomes an intense rivalry where people are seeing red after leaving here, thats when things have gone to far.

again, I agree with you completely, and I am as guilty as the next man for contributing to that. but I have kissed and made up with Viper Hunter more times than I would like to admit, and man does his mustache stink.

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again, I agree with you completely, and I am as guilty as the next man for contributing to that. but I have kissed and made up with Viper Hunter more times than I would like to admit, and man does his mustache stink.

 

 

@lol@ That's just the smell from all that kissin' of JayC's butt I have to do to try and keep from gettin' the boot!

 

 

@smilepunch@

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All of this crap is stupid. Who cares, Obiwan? Seriously. You're bitching because some do see some figures as sucking as badly as other figures. I really don't care if you disagtree with their opinions either, and this over-analyzing of why some might not like something is ridiculous.

 

 

Homages, tributes, remakes.........doesn't matter. the 25th anniversary line is for Hasbro to make CASH with, and since their new ideas and new character designs are seldomly as successfully recieved as their classic stuff, the line is a SAFE way for Hasbro to make money. They'd still be selling S6 or even VvV instead if they could (read as if people were still willing to buy it). It's just a business decision. There's nothing to over-analyze.

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These New Joes definitely look nice in these group shots (I borrowed this one from Justin)

 

11678ca4.png

 

 

 

#US1#

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All of this crap is stupid.

 

It is stupid. Hence my complaining.

 

Who cares, Obiwan? Seriously.

 

Who cares? The members who'd like to participate here without getting their own personal opinions or fan preferences bashed. You never noticed the members who just float in and float out after being pushed around by the jocks in the locker room?

 

You're bitching because some do see some figures as sucking as badly as other figures.

 

Correct. And it's just not a fair comparison. More visible and tangible effort was put into the 25th than VvV, and it's meant to depict the characters in the most iconic way possible. These are the action figure versions of the Palisades busts, IMO. Or at least to say, with the 25th's minor flaws, this is the same effort that is attempted as the Palisades busts.

 

I really don't care if you disagtree with their opinions either, and this over-analyzing of why some might not like something is ridiculous.

 

So then, I shouldn't be allowed to overanalyze it. . .? Am I making you uncomfortable? Sorry about that, but there are other members here who make me just as upset as you appear to be in your post.

 

Homages, tributes, remakes.........doesn't matter. the 25th anniversary line is for Hasbro to make CASH with, and since their new ideas and new character designs are seldomly as successfully recieved as their classic stuff, the line is a SAFE way for Hasbro to make money. They'd still be selling S6 or even VvV instead if they could (read as if people were still willing to buy it). It's just a business decision. There's nothing to over-analyze.

 

You just made a sweeping generalization about the motives of the company who designs the figures. The figures that are now being designed by fans who you are accusing me of overanalyzing.

 

-PJ

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