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Spider-man 4: The Sinister Six

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So since Spider-man 4 is a guarantee, I'm sure the script will start to be written soon. I personally "liked" spider-man 3, but I felt that the biggest downfall, and the big downfall of any movie in this type of genre, is that every character has to have some sort of backstory. Sure it was cute to watch Peter being a little nasty, and we finally got to see Venom and some awesome work on The Sandman, but it was just so much thrown into the mix, that it loses its significance. I think that the direction for the next

spider-man movie should focus on a team of villans. The keyword is team, in that they work together and have tactics and training. I think a Sinister Six storyline would be perfect. You could have characters like Scorpion, Beetle, Vulture, Electro, Shocker, Mysterio and possibly the return of Sandman. A highly trained, state of the art terrorist organization that knows how to work together and don't have to have complicated backstory's. This is my idea, not sure if it's been brought up before. What does everyone think?

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I wouldn't do the Sinister Six--way too hard to set up any kind of depth with that many characters.

If Spiderman 3 had too much thown into the mix with 3 bad guys, what do you think would happen with 6????

 

I'd stick with with two villains: The Lizard and Kraven the Hunter.

Doc Conners can be transformed into the Lizard and runs amuck, and J. Jonah Jameson hires Kraven as part publicity stunt, part effort to hunt Conners down. Of course Peter wants to make sure Conners is safely captured, and tried to do so as Spiderman, interfering in the process, and therein comes the conflict with Kraven.

There's the motivations, conflicts, pathos etc. that all the other stories had, and it can divert from the usual MaryJane in danger arc because its someone else that Peter cares about this time around.

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I wouldn't do the Sinister Six--way too hard to set up any kind of depth with that many characters.

If Spiderman 3 had too much thown into the mix with 3 bad guys, what do you think would happen with 6????

 

I'd stick with with two villains: The Lizard and Kraven the Hunter.

Doc Conners can be transformed into the Lizard and runs amuck, and J. Jonah Jameson hires Kraven as part publicity stunt, part effort to hunt Conners down. Of course Peter wants to make sure Conners is safely captured, and tried to do so as Spiderman, interfering in the process, and therein comes the conflict with Kraven.

There's the motivations, conflicts, pathos etc. that all the other stories had, and it can divert from the usual MaryJane in danger arc because its someone else that Peter cares about this time around.

 

See thats my whole deal. I don't think they would all need to have some sort origin stories, they could all be hired mercs. I would like to see Lizard and Kraven in the future sequels (logically, Lizard fits in perfectly). X-men 2 for example handled the team dynamic

well even though there was an overabundance of characters.

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lizard would be great as a villain for spider man 4. if it needed a second vilain i would have to go for my favorite, rhino as well. maybe at the end they can show a brief glimpse of the return of venom for spider man 5. after all regardless of what people think happened in spidey 3 venom cannot really be dead. after all the centuries of the symbiote surviving you cannot tell me that a simple pumpkin bomb could do in venom. if they could bring in venom for a return for the 5th then it would set the stage for carnage to be along side venom in the sixth. just my thoughts.

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See thats my whole deal. I don't think they would all need to have some sort origin stories, they could all be hired mercs. I would like to see Lizard and Kraven in the future sequels (logically, Lizard fits in perfectly). X-men 2 for example handled the team dynamic

well even though there was an overabundance of characters

 

Well, here's some questions to think about:

 

You have six bad guys, right? Each with their own distinctive looks, and personalities--but who are they?

Why'd they get together? Why are they doing this evil stuff? Why are such different people part of the same team--did they ALL suffer the exact same thing that gave them the motivation to be a terrorist?

If they are a team, why are their costumes all different? Different costumes speak of different drives

Are they personalities, or just ciphers--and if they are the latter, what's interesting about them?

If they are personalities, we ( the audience) need to see their motivations and understand why they've turned to evil--otherwise they are not going to be believable, right?

 

See, that is the pitfall of a large cast--everyone needs screen time and there's very little screen time to establish characters. The more distinct they are, and the larger roles they play, the more time they need. With six bad guys, you got six characters that need to be established--otherwise why use something like the Sinister six in the title or as a label for the group?

 

X-men 2 had a lot of characters--but how many of them had extensive speaking parts? How many were on screen for any length of time? Really, most of them were either a screaming mutant, a metal mutant, a tv-channel-changing mutant etc......just ciphers.

Pyro......for example........is a bad kid. Why? Why does he buy into Magneto's line instead of Xavier's?

He's just window dressing as a character--you can remove him completely from the story and it doesn't suffer. Did they really need Nightcrawler, for example, to be a character outside of the school?

Why not have him already a part of the place, but someone who fell into Stryker's influence by accident? Again, they could have taken all the elements of him in the movie and removed them and the story would nto have suffered. The only essential characters, were Wolverine, Xavier, Stryker & the kid in Stryker's Cerebro, Magneto and Jean. Of those 6, 3-4 of them were merely devices to further the plot, as they either served as a threat or as a savior ( or alternated between both). Very little was built on any of the characters--mostly because there was so little time.

That is the danger in having a large cast.

 

Audiences are curious about any character placed in the spotlight, and their response to the story as a whole depends on the rapport they have with those characters. Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are pretty good examples of large casts in movies........but they are also close to 3 hours each in length.

That's extremely unlikely for a movie like Spiderman.

 

The Sinister Six seems like a good idea on the face of it, but in movie form its VERY hard to pull off.

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See thats my whole deal. I don't think they would all need to have some sort origin stories, they could all be hired mercs. I would like to see Lizard and Kraven in the future sequels (logically, Lizard fits in perfectly). X-men 2 for example handled the team dynamic

well even though there was an overabundance of characters

 

Well, here's some questions to think about:

 

You have six bad guys, right? Each with their own distinctive looks, and personalities--but who are they?

Why'd they get together? Why are they doing this evil stuff? Why are such different people part of the same team--did they ALL suffer the exact same thing that gave them the motivation to be a terrorist?

If they are a team, why are their costumes all different? Different costumes speak of different drives

Are they personalities, or just ciphers--and if they are the latter, what's interesting about them?

If they are personalities, we ( the audience) need to see their motivations and understand why they've turned to evil--otherwise they are not going to be believable, right?

 

See, that is the pitfall of a large cast--everyone needs screen time and there's very little screen time to establish characters. The more distinct they are, and the larger roles they play, the more time they need. With six bad guys, you got six characters that need to be established--otherwise why use something like the Sinister six in the title or as a label for the group?

 

X-men 2 had a lot of characters--but how many of them had extensive speaking parts? How many were on screen for any length of time? Really, most of them were either a screaming mutant, a metal mutant, a tv-channel-changing mutant etc......just ciphers.

Pyro......for example........is a bad kid. Why? Why does he buy into Magneto's line instead of Xavier's?

He's just window dressing as a character--you can remove him completely from the story and it doesn't suffer. Did they really need Nightcrawler, for example, to be a character outside of the school?

Why not have him already a part of the place, but someone who fell into Stryker's influence by accident? Again, they could have taken all the elements of him in the movie and removed them and the story would nto have suffered. The only essential characters, were Wolverine, Xavier, Stryker & the kid in Stryker's Cerebro, Magneto and Jean. Of those 6, 3-4 of them were merely devices to further the plot, as they either served as a threat or as a savior ( or alternated between both). Very little was built on any of the characters--mostly because there was so little time.

That is the danger in having a large cast.

 

Audiences are curious about any character placed in the spotlight, and their response to the story as a whole depends on the rapport they have with those characters. Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are pretty good examples of large casts in movies........but they are also close to 3 hours each in length.

That's extremely unlikely for a movie like Spiderman.

 

The Sinister Six seems like a good idea on the face of it, but in movie form its VERY hard to pull off.

 

You brought up some good points arrow, and I agree that it is difficult to concieve of giving each of these characters enough screen time but here's another take I have on it. Look at a movie like the usual suspects. That story is full of interesting unique characters working together under a mysterious leader to pull something off. I think that movie went into just enough detail with the characters without cutting anyone short. I guess I'm just tired of seeing the same type of formula for these movies. I think these movies have gotten into a rut, Spider-man especially. He has trouble in his personal life, some sort of freak accident happens to some guy and gives them superpowers, they meet and fight, spider-man has more personal issues, later Spider-man fights super powered villan and wins.

 

Another issue I have with Spider-man, and Marvel in general is how all of these characters live and fight in New York, yet they haven't run into each other or heard about each other in the film world ( yeah I know legal issues, and there was the fantastic four deleted scene where Mr. Fantastic morphs into Wolverine.) Maybe I'm wrong with the sinister six concept, but I think most people will agree that the next film has to do something very different.

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Yep, something very different would be nice.

The problem with MY idea is that The Lizard and Kraven would be low-key as far as spectacle goes.

I dunno if it would be an interesting follow-up to Spiderman 3.

The Spiderman films seem to have gotten "bigger" in terms of visual spectacle--Sandman being a good example--and Lizard/Kraven story would jump right back to some intimate drama.

Mysterio would b a great villain to contnue the trend, because his movie illusions and special effects can be as over-the-top as needed.

Its a tough call which direction to go it, because it depends of what audiences seem to want.

Movie makers take their gauge from the trends in attendance--if movie have more splash are doing better, they tend to try splashier movies etc.

 

Another issue I have with Spider-man, and Marvel in general is how all of these characters live and fight in New York, yet they haven't run into each other or heard about each other in the film world ( yeah I know legal issues, and there was the fantastic four deleted scene where Mr. Fantastic morphs into Wolverine.)

 

Its strictly legal issues. They are "owned" by different studios, thus there's no reason to cross-polinate the films with characters from other movies. For lack of a better idea, they all exist in their own versions of New York--hence they will never likely meet..........

 

...unless they do a Marvel Team-up film LOL!

( speaking of which--I've thought for YEARS now that Marvel should write their movie deals so the characters in the movies exist as seperate entities from television--like they do with cartoons and video games. If this was writ as such, they could do a live-action TV series--call it MARVELS--and make it essentially "Marvel Team-up" using ANY character in the Marvel Universe. Yes, its kind of like Heroes, I know....

But this way, they could do storylines like the Sinister Six and others, because they'd be drawn out over a longer period of time--and use any character they like in the process.

They could have cross-overs where Spiderman meets the X-men etc. As long as it held an audience, they'd have unlimited stories. But its just an idea, like any other....)

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Yeah the villains would definately need backstory which would be hard to pull off with six.

I like the idea of Kraven and Lizard (I'm not a fan of Kraven but it's definately a logical choice). As far as effects goes uhhh...well, i guess they coul make the Lizard gradually 'evolve' into a bigger badder lizard throughout the film?

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Not necessarily thinking on this in terms of Spider-Man, but a friend and I were discussing the Batman franchise and having such a large rogue gallery to dip into. After re watching the Rundown again some time back I was given the idea of throwing in several villains while walking down Arkham Asylum, The Vault, the Raft, or whatever comic-book type prison was needed for the story. Villains already caught and our hero (or whomever) walks/swings/skulks through the halls and each individual villain is glanced over. You would have a digital read out of -

Name:

Codename:

Powers:

Most notorious crimes or whatever quick blurb of information is needed to quickly get the villain known. Every 'bad guy' doesn't need to have countless time wasted on giving them a human side or what have you.

 

Now, you can't pump 6 brand new villains in a movie and give them ALL this type of treatment, but you could have returning characters (.. if they would stop killing them all off) mesh with newer characters. Team up common interest? To kick around our fearless do-gooder.

 

But you also need to be able to not fall into the Ghost Rider trap. A visually amazing hero that thrashes every villain tossed his way with limitless ease. This would mean you can't pump out 6 one on one fights. A Frightful Four would seem to be an easier design. Pick one mastermind to be the 'ultimate' big bad, and then some well known flunkies to flesh out the other 3 spots.

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Without getting into too much about what made Spiderman 3 a disappointment for me, they should really go back to the comics and make Peter the main character in the film rather than the enemies - thats what made the comics good, and thats what lifted the second film up over the first.

 

The lizard I like the idea of, as this dynamic IS part of Peter Parker's life; the college teacher, mentor etc.

And they can go to town on the cgi with the lizard transformations etc.

I've never been a fan of Kraven, but I could see how he could fit in with the story, especially with the Lizard being an animal threat to New York.

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If I were going to put the Sinister Six in a Spidey movie, none of them would have natural abilities. They would all be similar to the Shocker or the Vulture, with gimmick devices provided to them by a third party. For the most part, the Six would just be a team of mercenaries, working for a mastermind character. Hence, intense exposition on each of them is unneccesary.

 

But the problem here is that Spidey doesn't really have any more puppet master type villains in his arsenal, at least not any with wide brand recognition. Dr. Octopus, in addition to being dead, wasn't that type of character in the movie. The Osbornes are dead, and Hobgoblin would be completely redundant. No more Goblins. Kingpin is in the Daredevil franschise. The only one really left is the Jackal, and he'd have to be heavily re-vamped from his comic origins to be the type to fund the Six.

 

 

And, the more I hear Kraven, the more I Kringe. Kraven is at this point such a cliche. Ohh, The Hunt? Oh my. His best storyline ends with him blowing his brains out.

 

Carnage isn't at all the type of character (and I use the term loosely) that I'd introduce to a family franchise...

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dont we need both doc ock and sandman for the sinister six?

 

Well the original Six were formed by Ock, and he was joined by Kraven, Vulture, Mysterio, Electro and Sandman. The second incarnation replaced the then-dead Kraven with the Macendale Hobgoblin. The most recent incarnation (not counting Osborn's "Sinister Twelve"), substituted Doc Ock for Venom, and Kraven's place was filled by his son.

 

But, in movie terms, it isn't pracitcal, mostly because not only is Ock dead, but even while alive, this wasn't his style. And Sandman could concievably be blackmailed into joining the Six, as he was in their second incarnation in the comics. He actually helped Spidey defeat them at the story's climax.

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Quite frankly I thought think Spidey taking on Kraven and Lizard would EVER live up to the intensity of Spidey 3 which involved the black suit, Spidey taking on his old friend Harry as the New Goblin, the birth of Venom, the story of the Sandman... What you need to do is top the Spidey 3 experience...

 

How about:

 

Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage

 

Hmm? Remember the good ol' SNES days? Spidey now has to team up with his old enemy (and still enemy, quite frankly) to put the much more evil and sinister Carnage character down. Think of the marketing techniques and video games......

Seriously, is your little brother going to buy a Kraven action figure or a Carnage action figure?

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How about:

 

Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage

 

No.

 

Just, no.

 

I loved the video game, but the comic was garbage. And the character of Carnage is not only inappropriate for a mostly family-friendly franchies, but also not much of a character, besides.

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I think they should just stick with 1 villain in the movie - if such movie ever gets made.

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Lizard (as most have said) fits in perfectly as doc conners appears in part 2 and 3. I personnaly am on the same line as ARROW and would like to see Mysterio as the next villain.

 

I think visually it would be more appealing.

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The problem I keep having with the Lizard is that he can't really move an entire movie. Not saying I don't want to see him, but there's no way he's primary villain material.

 

The recurring problem with Spidey films at this point is that few of his remaining rogues can live up to the likes of Ock, Gobby and Venom; there's a reason those are the Unholy Trinity. We can't do an independent Hobgoblin, because we already went back to the Goblin well for Harry.

 

I could easily see the Vulture as a primary villain. Mysterio would be fun as well.

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Well, I've always thought a great compromise would be to have an opening battle against one (or more) of the rogue's gallery before moving on to the substantive plot.

 

It would give us a few minutes' worth of another cool villain in action, but we wouldn't need to spend half the movie developing his backstory. We're already 4 movies in and there's a sizeable backlog of well-known villains yet to appear on-screen--most of whom couldn't support a movie on their own.

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NO SINISTER six. not yet. wait for spider-man 6 for that. build up the members in the other 2 films. that'll work.

 

but the 6 in 4 is just too soon.

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