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General_Hawk
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I honestly can't comprehend the desire to complain about such nice-looking figures. I really can't. I just can't figure it out.

 

Take your own advice, and stop trying to. ;)

 

 

In case you missed it....THE FIGURES LOOK FINE. Well done, Hasbro!

 

 

Well there ya go!

 

They've knock one out of the park for ya, and you'll have some "fine" toys to collect in the upcoming months. Isn't that the most important thing in the end?

 

It's not politics, it's plastic.

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Justification? What sort of "evidence" do you need for that?

 

Oh, so you agree that there's nothing backing your opinion other than you think "they suck," is that it?

 

 

Um, what?
Really trying not to talk over your head here. . .

 

25th Storm Shadow resembles RAH Storm Shadow as close as they can get (with a somewhat "updated" feel). Same for Roadblock, Baroness, Destro, Cobra Commander, Duke, Cobra, Scarlett, and Gung-Ho. (Snake Eyes version 1 was so bland they HAD to add detail). Flint, Snake Eyes 2 and Storm Shadow 2 do not look anything like their RAH versions. Why?

 

Did you read what Gunslinger wrote? Your separations are totally arbitrary. You got Storm Shadow v1. "as close as they can get (with a somewhat 'updated' feel)," then you justify SE v.1 as actually needing more detail, and then you sweepingly state that Flint, SE v.2, and Stormy v.2 as not looking anything like their RAH versions. Colors, overall artistic design, costumes, etc. all resemble their 80s designs by the upper 90% rate.

 

Is Flint missing his beret? No? Well then he's looks something like his ARAH version, toppling your exaggerrative statement right out of the gate. Is his khaki shirt black? CHECK. How's his hair color? Pants design? Gloves? CHECKCHECKCHECK. He's even got a green shotgun.

 

And VH says Hasbro screwed him. :rolleyes:

 

The "ideal" Flint? Give me a break. The "ideal" Flint would resemble RAH Flint....the same way the OTHER TEN DO. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? Same for the SE/SS 2s.

 

Then you're arguing for visible rivets in the shoulders, less articulation, and less paint masks. . .right? Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?

 

-PJ

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I mean what if, just for sake of argument, the line WAS capped at 25? Would you rather have a bunch of repaints and repeats? Or 25 unique individual figures that represent their iconic forms from RAH?
Okay, I'll bite. Let's say the line was only 25 figures.

 

- Two characters with the same torso (same shirt) doesn't phase me because your argument amounts to: "Individual wrinkles in the BDUs = ICONIC. @loll@ koo-koo. . .

 

- Same goes for the pants, BTW. Just using Flint as an example (because he got the most overall abuse), the most important parts of his character are ignored by yourself and VH for the sake of PANTS AND SHIRT. OMG. Damn that evil Hasbro. Viva the collector's revolution. Waka waka.

 

You know I see you trying to counter mine and VH's argument, but I don't see you actually READING the arguments. Nor do I see you "justifying your side" as you expect VH to do.

 

I have a paper trail in this thread that makes the above statement look 100% like a blatant false accusation. I suppose my point-by-point answers with specific quotes and reiterations here won't convince you either. "Sigh," next I expect you'll accuse me of being a shill or something. . .right?

 

-PJ

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obiwanjacoby, please stop trying to use logic to reason with the naysayers. You'll never convince them. Some people just love to complain, no matter how nice a figure looks.

 

I'm really not trying to convince them of anything. I'm trying to find what they're hiding. I truly believe they have this idea of perfection in their mind, and they're convinced that Hasbro knows it and is willfully holding out on them. . .or something to that effect. Still waiting for the other side to come clean on this one. Maybe in a following post, one can always hope.

 

I honestly can't comprehend the desire to complain about such nice-looking figures. I really can't. I just can't figure it out.

 

Neither can I. I wonder if it's an attention thing. A thirst for internet infamy or something. . . @hmmm@

 

-PJ

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Don't worry about "sides"..that's your problem. Asking me to "justify my opinion is pretty arrogant, don't you think?

 

Arrogant compared to who?

 

Are you saying (as Pesatyel seems to be above) that you have absolutely no valid reason for hating these figures, other than that they don't resemble your personal level of perfection (which you cannot define)?

 

and all the "but WHY..?" "PROVE your point..!" "MAKE me SEE it, and I'll join YOUR side..!" isn't going to amount to a hill of beans, while you stand with arms folded, demanding a logical (according to your logic)explanation out of me over my feelings on the matter, one that likely while never be logical to EVERYONE.

 

Good, this is progress. You really are saying, "it's just you" and there's no real reason for it then.

 

Do I throw a fit, and question their intelligence by having a DIFFERENT take on them than myself?

 

No, have I?

 

It's feelin' like it, but I'd likely fail at justifying that as well.
Oh, but it's clearly not. I merely called your hand is all.

 

I'm trying to find out WHERE I posted such crap as that to begin with. Reducing my comments to such tripe is a cheap debate tactic, and I'm still wondering why you feel it necessary for ANYONE to justify their viewpoints on an issue like this to you?

 

I'm sorry VH, did I overstep my "rank" in the fan heirarchy or something? <_<

 

You had a pair of pants and a shirt and then called them "iconic". I called your bluff with head sculpt, hands, paint, signature accessories, and "artistic license."

 

In short, you're making the 25th anniversary Flint out to be like this was Michael Bay's version of Optimus Prime.

 

So fold? Or play again?

 

-PJ

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I'm fully aware of my negativity towards Hasbro on these issues, as they've disappointed me a lot lately, but I've been at it long enough, I feel I can share those opinions, and if others agree, that's good to know I'm not living in a vacuum with those thoughts, and if others disagree, well, that's all part of the enjoyment we get out of being part of a group like this. Maybe not for some, but for most.
I don't believe you are aware of your own negativity. Do you realize that if these were Star Wars figures, you would be arguing that the current offerings of Luke Skywalker "suck" because they don't match the original '77 Luke with wedding-topper-head, tiny feet, and only 5 pts. of articulation?

 

Unless. . .(and I'm giving you a way out here) your ideal Joe design were based on something else. Then we would all have something rational to discuss. Get it?

 

I'm giving you the option of "appearing" rational while still retaining your own opinions on the matter.

 

What's "ideal" to me isn't going to be "ideal" with you, and to ask of each other (as vehemently as you are of me) to JUSTIFY our opinions, to the point of possibly swaying the other to agree and change their position...?

 

Oh, well if it's all subjective, then why the crusade against Hasbro? Why is the bar set so high that they'll never jump it without a time machine? This isn't about the toys, c'mon. . .

 

isn't that just a little unreasonable?
Actually, it's not. Here's why. Because my standard is set within the capacity for Hasbro to achieve it. As a matter-of-fact, I spelled it out with other fans in the past. This 25th line is in every way what I asked for 7 years ago, right down to the last detail.

 

Better than Santa Claus, IMO. #US1#

 

That's taking things waaay too personal, and while you'd charge that I'm acting arrogant enough to suggest I think Hasbro owes me or that G.I.Joe is MY "baby", the same could be said for those that get angry at me for being negative over something they think is cool.

 

Words in my mouth again. Never said you thought Hasbro owed you. Wow, once is a mistake; twice is a habit.

 

Do I need to apologize for my opinions inadvertently hurting somebodies feelings?
Yes. To whomever designed the 25th collection.

 

Oh yeah, and have the guts to do it in public. You are publicly guilty of setting an unfair standard that is impossible for anyone to achieve, failing to define that standard, and then pissing on Hasbro when they "fail" you. This is public; widespread knowledge, and you have dragged it out long after the threads in question have been locked.

 

However, if you can define your aesthetic standard to more reasonable levels, I'd let the accusation totally slide. You and I both know others on this very board that aren't as negotiable as I am.

 

I don't get the Cobra Officer/Trooper analogy? Cobra Troopers and Officers with nothing more than maybe a different colored Cobra symbol or visor, are hardly in the same category as Joe's staple characters, and UNIQUE dress codes.

 

Both sides wear military uniforms, but only the Joes either mix and match real-world BDUs, or else throw them out altogether. So you're right. But I can take it on a case-by-case basis. Case in point? Duke and Flint.

 

Therefore, both the two Cobras in question and the two Joes in question present a valid comparison.

 

Cobra has ALWAYS been the more UNIFORMED army, hence the craze for army building. Joe "greenshirts" could be an example of that as well, but we're arguing the difference between Duke and Flint amongst the Joes, the division of Real American and ECCENTRIC Hero's.
Nope, we're arguing recycled molds. One part of a mold was reused from one completely different character to the other, and another mold was reused from Duke to Flint.

 

Officers are different from Troopers, regardless of their clones.

 

For YOU, Duke and Flint were close enough in their dress, that a repaint of Dukes outfit (khaki's) is good enough for Flint, and looks just fine.

 

I don't.

 

Then what would you suggest? A totally handmade rehash of another of the same standard issue khaki shirt?

 

CUSTOMER: Sir, I don't want this Big Mac. I want another that's totally unique to my standards.

 

McD's: We can remake it for you if you tell us what you want on it.

 

CUSTOMER: I want it exactly the same as this one, only more perfect.

 

McD's: Koo-koo. . .

 

Khakis, standard BDUs, Big Macs.

 

You're arguing cookie-cutter clothes and not providing any solutions, VH. You need to step back and see how this is making you look.

 

-PJ

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WOW! I guess I've met my match? @lol@

 

 

There's certainly a lot of assumptions going on in this particular debate, that you're waging against the naysayers of Hasbro's choice to reuse the Duke mold for Flint, and it's more personal than anything of REAL value as a friendly discussion of opinions.

 

 

You're hammering away at something that's not going to be resolved on either side. I'm not likely going to give you a satisfactory explaination as to why I'm disappointed in the Flint figure, and you're going to continue to go on and on with these little rubber stamped, ancient/old discussion forum tactics, to call out an opponent, by accusing me of having deeper, sinister motives for having an objection to it at ALL, therefore painting me the "looney" (who told me that....hmmm?) with no "justification" to lodge a legitmate complaint about ANYTHING.

 

Not in YOUR courtroom anyway! Or maybe not so much a "courtroom"...more like a game of poker, considering your references to folding or playing?

 

"PLAYING" being the operative word, as you seem to get your enjoyment out of trying to rattle the naysayers, beyond just disagreeing with them and instead, seem to seek gratitude out of making a "case" against their positions as irrational and unfounded and fraught with ill intent.

 

@firedevil@ Muuwahahahahahaah! If I don't like Flint...NOBODY gets to like FLINT!!

 

What's it come down to really?

 

You're a GOOD Joe fan, and I'm not? I'm critical of Hasbro, I set unreachable goals for them and you're more realistic about it?

 

I don't think I'm standing in your way here am I? Givin' ya a hard time about your opinions or anything like that? Making TNI time unfun and sad? Threatening the continuation of the toys with my rants on them and against their makers? I disapprove, and I'm so important so they'll likely cancel the whole damn thing?

 

@lol@ WOW! I wish I was that important. I'm nobody.

 

 

I wonder what will happen when I finally purchase these figures, check'em out, in hand, and have a change of heart on the issues I'm concerned about NOW? It's happened before.

 

It's hard to tell what they're going to FINALLY look like, based off the varying images we have of them so far. Will my privelege in posting my second thoughts and turnaround of opinion be revoked, becuase I was so negative about it at first?

 

I don't care if I end up being wrong..I WANT to be wrong, because I want to have some cool 3 3/4" Joes again. I've already pointed out the ones I'm looking forward to, but I sure hope I don't have a 2nd thought on THOSE, and find out they're not as cool (in hand) as I thought they'd be by the images. That's the flip side of it, the natural course of things usually.

 

 

 

Does this end my psychiatric session, or is there more? Any prescriptions?

 

 

#US1#

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I mean what if, just for sake of argument, the line WAS capped at 25? Would you rather have a bunch of repaints and repeats? Or 25 unique individual figures that represent their iconic forms from RAH?
Okay, I'll bite. Let's say the line was only 25 figures.

 

- Two characters with the same torso (same shirt) doesn't phase me because your argument amounts to: "Individual wrinkles in the BDUs = ICONIC. @loll@ koo-koo. . .

 

- Same goes for the pants, BTW. Just using Flint as an example (because he got the most overall abuse), the most important parts of his character are ignored by yourself and VH for the sake of PANTS AND SHIRT. OMG. Damn that evil Hasbro. Viva the collector's revolution. Waka waka.

 

 

There's more to the issue than just the reuse of Dukes mold for Flint.

 

There's years of disappointing issues compiled onto these concerns.

 

It's a 25th anniversary SPECIAL edition, and expectations are HIGH! Remakes of the characters, in their original appearances, UPDATED with NEW articulation and detail.

 

25 figures and right out of the gate, we get repaints and 2nd versions of 3 characters, with one of the main characters getting a hand-me-down, that being Flint. This is alarming to some of us, and disappointing.

 

A simple set of arms with short sleeves couldn't be justified (expensed) for Flint? Out of the planned 25, there won't be another that could use them? Who says they have to REUSE every single part they cast molds for to begin with? The heads won't be reused for another character will they? So how much MORE would a standard pair of short sleeved arms cost, (than a head) to use again on any number of the early characters they could be making?

 

It's these decisions and practices that some of us have a problem with, because of some past disappointments, we see the trend and fear even more frustration developing, before we get those updates on another favorite character or two, we've been waiting on, and buying SE's after SE's hoping to support the line LONG enough to see it.

 

How many SE's and SS's do we have to endure before a cool Shipwreck or Bazooka get a chance? Will they get a mold of their own or a discombobulated version of some other one?

 

It's 25 years Hasbro, and a lot of characters come around in that span of time. It's worth it to give us 25 of'em at least and if it sells like hotcakes, do the 2nd versions later and slap a few customs together. We'll bite, but for now it's only 25 we're CERTAIN of, and it'd be nice to have those numbers as full of ORGINALITY as possible.

 

It's all a done deal, so those crys are unheard, but that's why we come to discussion boards, to seek out support or otherwise, and not feel so alone. ^_^

 

I have a few that feel the same, and probably more that DON'T.

 

It's not going to end world hunger, stop solar warming or end the violence in the Middle East, but it's a hobby we share and disagree on sometimes.

 

Call me looney!

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Guest McBragg

Not liking the scalper-friendly, ninja heavy case ratio...though I suspect they will revise this like with Star Wars cases.

 

Preorder at Entertainment Earth

 

The G.I. Joe 25th Anniversary Action Figures Wave 1 includes 8 individually packaged action figure, including: 2x Storm Shadow, 3x Snake Eyes with Wolf, 1x Cobra Officer, 1x Cobra Commander (Hood), 1x Flint. (Subject to change).

 

So intially, expect to see Storm Shadow and maybe Snake-Eyes.

 

Still IMHO, no case asst. with a cobra troop should ever contain only one.

 

8 figures a case seems pretty small, too.

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Not liking the scalper-friendly, ninja heavy case ratio...though I suspect they will revise this like with Star Wars cases.

 

Preorder at Entertainment Earth

 

The G.I. Joe 25th Anniversary Action Figures Wave 1 includes 8 individually packaged action figure, including: 2x Storm Shadow, 3x Snake Eyes with Wolf, 1x Cobra Officer, 1x Cobra Commander (Hood), 1x Flint. (Subject to change).

 

So intially, expect to see Storm Shadow and maybe Snake-Eyes.

 

Still IMHO, no case asst. with a cobra troop should ever contain only one.

 

8 figures a case seems pretty small, too.

 

I was already expecting SE and SS to linger on the pegs even when I thought they might all be even packed. Now I figure they'll sit there even longer and in larger numbers then I first feared. I predict seeing many a peg with 2 SE and 2 SS and no Flint, CC, or Officer on them.

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WOW! I guess I've met my match? @lol@

 

I'm flattered. ;)

 

 

There's certainly a lot of assumptions going on in this particular debate, that you're waging against the naysayers of Hasbro's choice to reuse the Duke mold for Flint, and it's more personal than anything of REAL value as a friendly discussion of opinions.
Not really. I'm waiting to take an AAMT final, I'm totally bored, and I've always dreamed of debating Viper Hunter on a hotbutton topic.

 

You're hammering away at something that's not going to be resolved on either side. I'm not likely going to give you a satisfactory explaination as to why I'm disappointed in the Flint figure,

 

Try me. I only asked for anything other than "it sux and Hasbro ripped us off." You didn't even bother to try.

 

and you're going to continue to go on and on with these little rubber stamped, ancient/old discussion forum tactics, to call out an opponent, by accusing me of having deeper, sinister motives for having an objection to it at ALL, therefore painting me the "looney" (who told me that....hmmm?) with no "justification" to lodge a legitmate complaint about ANYTHING.
You have to admit it's quite unique. Nothing was accused without giving you an option to prove it wasn't true. And it still stands.

 

By the way, it takes two to tango, and you have clearly stated you're not willing to end the debate on your side. Too bad I only have two weeks.

 

Not in YOUR courtroom anyway! Or maybe not so much a "courtroom"...more like a game of poker, considering your references to folding or playing?

 

"PLAYING" being the operative word, as you seem to get your enjoyment out of trying to rattle the naysayers, beyond just disagreeing with them and instead, seem to seek gratitude out of making a "case" against their positions as irrational and unfounded and fraught with ill intent.

 

Ah-ah, I prefer "potentially irrational." ^_^ I am keeping it at a level of civility that you have rarely encountered. And this will only go on as long as you want it to. . .that is, if you're losing your patience, steam, cool, etc.

 

-PJ

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@firedevil@ Muuwahahahahahaah! If I don't like Flint...NOBODY gets to like FLINT!!

 

What's it come down to really?

 

Did you really mean that, about "no one" getting to like Flint? I don't know when you're kidding around and when you're not anymore.

 

Because you seem to really want to be the negative advertiser about it. . .for some reason. . .that I haven't heard yet. You seem to just want to exercise your "freedom" to repeat your (open?) hatred for a figure over and over. It's almost as if you're afraid that people will forget that you really hate Flint, so you need to remind them daily.

 

You're a GOOD Joe fan, and I'm not?
Didn't say that.

 

I'm critical of Hasbro, I set unreachable goals for them and you're more realistic about it?

 

I am saying that. But I'm also giving you the option of showing us why your standards are rational.

 

And you're stalling. See, you're the one doing it to yourself now; not me. This really could have been settled a long time ago.

 

I don't think I'm standing in your way here am I? Givin' ya a hard time about your opinions or anything like that? Making TNI time unfun and sad? Threatening the continuation of the toys with my rants on them and against their makers? I disapprove, and I'm so important so they'll likely cancel the whole damn thing?
You're doing a great job of mixing truth and fiction here. I do see you giving others a hard time about their opinions. Not only that, but you're way more intrusive about it than I am with you. Your reply to Ashtalon was pretty rude, don't you think? However, I never said you threatened the continuation of the toys or anything like that. I am very familiar with the stock fanboy arguments and I'm actively trying to avoid them. I really am trying to have a serious discussion without the usual ad hominem fallacies or trying to put you in a corner.

 

@lol@ WOW! I wish I was that important. I'm nobody.

 

I don't believe that. I don't think you do either. Your reputation for argumentum ad nauseum is world-famous. Back when I was just a lurker, I've read some of your posts and literally winced in front of my monitor. You are very adept at coming up with new and creative ways of shutting down a civil debate in your favor by incitement and emotional manipulation.

 

Trust, me. I know it when I see it because I'm the exact same type. I've lost count of the sites that have banned me, simply because the thought of continuing the debate made them physically ill. I even made one mod take a vacation after banning me. @haha@

 

So how long do you want to keep it going? Think we'll get our own sticky? :P

 

I wonder what will happen when I finally purchase these figures, check'em out, in hand, and have a change of heart on the issues I'm concerned about NOW? It's happened before.
You have that option. No one is saying you can't be suspicious. But you and I both know that you haven't exactly been advocating a "wait and see" attitude.

 

It's hard to tell what they're going to FINALLY look like, based off the varying images we have of them so far. Will my privelege in posting my second thoughts and turnaround of opinion be revoked, becuase I was so negative about it at first?

 

It's not my court, remember? @smash@

 

I don't care if I end up being wrong..I WANT to be wrong, because I want to have some cool 3 3/4" Joes again. I've already pointed out the ones I'm looking forward to, but I sure hope I don't have a 2nd thought on THOSE, and find out they're not as cool (in hand) as I thought they'd be by the images. That's the flip side of it, the natural course of things usually.
I'm not the type to rubber-stamp someone "right" or "wrong" until I have something to back it up with. And I haven't since this debate began. But that's my point.

 

VH: Hasbro screwed us.

 

VH: Wait and see.

 

VH: I want to be wrong.

 

??????

 

PROFIT

 

Does this end my psychiatric session, or is there more? Any prescriptions?

 

@smoke@ Mr. Hunter, een my clinic, zee patients are not patients. Rather, zey are clients. @couch@

 

And let the record show that I never gave you a final diagnosis. You always get a fair way out with me.

 

-PJ

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There's more to the issue than just the reuse of Dukes mold for Flint.

 

There's years of disappointing issues compiled onto these concerns.

 

Whoa, whaaaa??? :huh: Each wave doesn't deserve it's own shot to stand alone on it's own merits? Furthermore, this isn't even a wave, it's a revamp. Please tell me you're not judging this on history alone. How do you even know it's the same team of designers? How do you know it's not just one dude?

 

It's a 25th anniversary SPECIAL edition, and expectations are HIGH!
HOW HIGH? I'll just keep saying it until you specify it.

 

And you say "expectations" as if you're speaking for the glorious united front for UNSPECIFIED HIGH EXPECTATIONS. Who are all these people? Now, that would make a sweet convention badge or sig. banner, wouldn't it? ^_^

 

Remakes of the characters, in their original appearances, UPDATED with NEW articulation and detail.

 

Good. This is progress. Now with that statement you made there, you're going to have to grant Hasbro at least a little artistic license. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Let's say for the sake of argument that for your Flint to be the ideal Flint, he must absolutely have a crooked grin. It's in the original '85 version, and it's even in the filecard.

 

Now then, if Flint doesn't have the grin, would it fair of me to say that Flint is 100% in every way not Flint?

 

YES or NO?

 

The heads won't be reused for another character will they?
Hope not. See, I have my limits here. It just takes some time to compare between the two of us how far they can go with recycled molds, correct?

 

So how much MORE would a standard pair of short sleeved arms cost, (than a head) to use again on any number of the early characters they could be making?

 

I'm not arguing tooling cost. I know you'd like to herd me in that direction though, wouldn't you?

 

It's these decisions and practices that some of us have a problem with, because of some past disappointments, we see the trend and fear even more frustration developing, before we get those updates on another favorite character or two, we've been waiting on, and buying SE's after SE's hoping to support the line LONG enough to see it.
I don't do that. I vote with my wallet. I never subscribed to the mentality of, "Support the line and buy everything with the logo or else they'll cancel it." Total nonsense.

 

How many SE's and SS's do we have to endure before a cool Shipwreck or Bazooka get a chance? Will they get a mold of their own or a discombobulated version of some other one?

 

Your apparent tunnel vision seems to show in this statement as well. You can make a very dead-on likeness of Bazooka with some recycled parts, but the original Shipwreck never really had anything recyle-worthy, because he was wearing a stock sailor outfit. See my point?

 

It's 25 years Hasbro, and a lot of characters come around in that span of time. It's worth it to give us 25 of'em at least and if it sells like hotcakes, do the 2nd versions later and slap a few customs together. We'll bite, but for now it's only 25 we're CERTAIN of, and it'd be nice to have those numbers as full of ORGINALITY as possible.

 

I like the way you phrased that. But you're taking the originality thing to absurd levels.

 

If Duke and Flint were both originally sculpted back in the day with life-jackets, would you still complain if they made the 25th anniversary versions with shared torsos? What if Flint's trademark life-jacket was black? Get it?

 

It's all a done deal, so those crys are unheard, but that's why we come to discussion boards, to seek out support or otherwise, and not feel so alone. ^_^

 

You're seeking a support group? :blink:

 

First you're not emotionally attached ("it's just plastic"), then you're making impassioned speeches and holding hands with your small but dedicated support group. C'mon VH, make up your mind.

 

-PJ

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What I don't get is why we can't just leave the people alone that don't like the new stuff? It's their (and somewhat mine) opinion that they are intitled to, without any justification to anyone. You know, when I order that Big Mac, I tell them mayo only. Why? Because I don't like all that other stuff. Why? Because I don't. I don't have to justify my dislikes to anyone. And then when people do, they get bashed on saying their reasons aren't good enough. Whatever. You like the new figures. Great. Throw a party. Call up the newspapers. Write it in the freaking sky. I don't care. If I don't like them, don't line me up in front of a firing squad because my reasoning isn't good enough for you. Because in the long run, your opinion stinks just as much as mine does.

 

And if that case assortment is true (since they included the infamous 'subject to change'), I think that will not be a wise decision if they're planning to make money on these right out the gate.

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What I don't get is why we can't just leave the people alone that don't like the new stuff?

 

Because they rub everyone else's nose in it on a daily basis? Why can't I do the same for the other side?

 

It's their (and somewhat mine) opinion that they are intitled to, without any justification to anyone.
So it's fair to say that both sides can lobby for it (loudly and extensively) on a daily basis. . .rrright?

 

You know, when I order that Big Mac, I tell them mayo only. Why? Because I don't like all that other stuff. Why? Because I don't. I don't have to justify my dislikes to anyone.

 

True. But at the same time you didn't really order a Big Mac, did you? That particular sandwich is its own trademarked recipe. I used that particular analogy for a reason. C'mon, you know the song! "Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese. . ."

 

Ohhhh, PWNT! I didn't think anyone would actually walk into that one. @lol@

 

If I don't like them, don't line me up in front of a firing squad because my reasoning isn't good enough for you. Because in the long run, your opinion stinks just as much as mine does.

 

Oh, please-please define for us how we line you up in front of a firing squad. @pun@ @cyclops@

 

@loll@

 

My opinion here is just as good as yours, isn't it? In all fairness I get to ride this as far as you guys usually do.

 

-PJ

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What I don't get is why we can't just leave the people alone that don't like the new stuff? It's their (and somewhat mine) opinion that they are intitled to, without any justification to anyone.

because this is a discussion board, not a make a statement and flee board. in the course of a discussion, most people usually respond to what others say, question opinions and sometimes debate differences. kind of like this:

It's a 25th anniversary SPECIAL edition, and expectations are HIGH! Remakes of the characters, in their original appearances, UPDATED with NEW articulation and detail.

but the Flint figure actually encompasses that criteria -- character remake in original appearance with updated, new articulation -- so what's the problem?

25 figures and right out of the gate, we get repaints and 2nd versions of 3 characters, with one of the main characters getting a hand-me-down, that being Flint. This is alarming to some of us, and disappointing.

whoa, what repaints? a repaint is a figure that is repainted in its entirty, without any different body parts. as far as I know, the only repaint is the Cobra Officer, which I have yet to see anyone complain about. are you now complaining about the Cobra Officer figure, or intentionally misrepresenting the other figures -- V2 SE's and SS, Flint and Hooded Cobra Commander -- none of which can be classified as merely "repaints"

 

of course, that is because your position is an emotional one, not a logical one, which is why I think key details are missed, because you aren't interested in making a sound point, merely communicating your feelings, which aren't logical. that is why they are feelings, not logic. and that is fine. you should be congratulated for you ability to communicate your feelings as well as you do without coming across as simply hysterical (most of the time @smilepunch@), unlike most emotionally driven people.

 

your emotional position is further exemplified by the folowing, where you discuss "fears" and "frustration."

It's these decisions and practices that some of us have a problem with, because of some past disappointments, we see the trend and fear even more frustration developing, before we get those updates on another favorite character or two, we've been waiting on, and buying SE's after SE's hoping to support the line LONG enough to see it.

More just emotion:

How many SE's and SS's do we have to endure before a cool Shipwreck or Bazooka get a chance? Will they get a mold of their own or a discombobulated version of some other one?
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Crimson Twins, you're TOTALLY entitled to speak your opinion, and I respect it even if I don't agree with you.

 

Diaper Hunter on the other hand...His incessant posts annoy the hell out of me even on the ultra rare hell freezing over occassion that I agree with his statement.

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The "ideal" Flint? Give me a break. The "ideal" Flint would resemble RAH Flint....the same way the OTHER TEN DO. Why is that such a hard concept to grasp? Same for the SE/SS 2s.

I am willing to be that if you identified how many ways the Flint figure deviates from the v1 RAH figure and compare it to how many ways the Snake Eyes, Duke or Storm Shadow figures deviate from their v1 RAH counterparts, you will find that they all lack about the same many intricacies as each other, so the first ten aren't any more identical to the new figures than the "reuses."

 

I don't think even someone as outspoken as Viper Hunter is arguing completely against the reuse of molds. I think (or at least *I* think, and we seem to be in relative agreement on the subject) that repeats and repaints can wait for 2008.

so you are saying you would be okay with Flint if he came out next year, but don't like him because he came out this year? now the quality of a figure is dependent upon when it is released?

I mean what if, just for sake of argument, the line WAS capped at 25? Would you rather have a bunch of repaints and repeats? Or 25 unique individual figures that represent their iconic forms from RAH?

poor argument. whether someone would prefer, in a perfect world, all new sculpts doesn't in any way mean a figure made from reused parts can't eb good -- which is what VH's position, which you seem to be supporting, is.

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And as far as the opinion line, I wasn't implying that yours stinks. I was making a reference to a well known cliche about opinions and certain parts of our bodies.

 

Here's my final view on this whole thing. I can agree with some of what VH says. Some of these didn't meet my expectations. But, he has also said that he reserved the right to make a final opinion once he owns the actual final figure, and has it in his own hands. Right now, he's not liking what he sees. And on many of those points, I don't either. There are some things that I really do like about the set. SE V1 for example. I love it. But, personally I've never been a big fan of ML type articulation, so these aren't blowing my mind like they are so many other people. I see some of the flaws in the body design that come from making them this way (such as the way the legs never seem to connect to the body in a way that looks natural). All that being said, I am excited that Joes are coming back to retail. Mostly because I haven't been able to find the same joy I had when I was hunting for Joes in the mass market two years ago.

 

Anyway, these figures aren't blowing my socks off like they do for the majority here. I've stated some of my reasons coutless times before in all the other posts that ended up locked or edited. As has VH. It just gets tiresome to continually try to put your opinion out there only to have someone say it's not a good enough reason to not like something. While VH's points may not be valid to you or me, they are valid to him, and should be respected as such. Just like, at least from my standpoint, you have your reasons for liking them, and I will respect those reasons. I don't have to agree with you, but I will not attack your comments and state that your opinions are weak or not good enough to justify your comments. You're right, this is an open forum for discussing different topics. Just remember, there is two sides to everything, and each should be equally allowed to express their opinion, regardless of whether it's positive or negative.

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Hey, Crimson Twins. Did you ever buy the Cobra Crimson Attack Chopper? Did you keep the pilots that came with it?

 

-PJ

 

Yes, monkey arms and all. I've actually got two choppers.

 

Okay, cool.

 

I didn't buy 'em. Why? Well, Tomax and Xamot are my absolute favorite Cobra characters ever. It's my opinion that besides the heads, the T&X pilots were a cheap way to recycle the C.L.A.W.S. Commander. In other words, I'm saying they sucked. Hm, sound familiar?

 

But according to you, they still fall within your standards of an acceptable "Crimson Twins" aesthetic. That is to say, you kept them when you bought the copter and you appear to accept them, despite the fact that nothing matches the originals at all, except maybe the heads.

 

Now, wouldn't it bug you just a little bit if I continually hashed on my above "sux" statement day in and day out? @horse@

 

Wouldn't you take it a little personally, especially after this exchange today? @soap@

 

What if I added the irrational fear of Hasbro re-releasing the Crimson Chopper pilots at a future date? What if I put a banner at the bottom of my posts focusing in on collectors who were "duped" into owning them? What if I accused you of just buying the Twin pilots just to keep the line afloat?

 

You just might think I was a Lil'-Debbie-Nutty-Bar. . .wouldn't you? @jump#

 

All I'm saying is that's what I'm hearing with all the 25th hate out there. . .that is, until a rational justification can be made for it.

 

That's why you have to justify your preference in this case. You're not always required to do this (nor would it be fair in every case of dislike), but given the drumbeat and propaganda pushed hard on this site. . .it's time for VH and his supporters to show their cards.

 

-PJ

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I see some of the flaws in the body design that come from making them this way (such as the way the legs never seem to connect to the body in a way that looks natural).

 

Now this is a reasonable reply! You have something other than "sux" to back up your opinion. This was all I was asking, but no one seemed to want to cut & past a statement I might have missed, or send me to a relavant post. That's all I wanted.

 

Now the real discussion can begin!

 

The problem is now the conflict between a fan accepting a pair of "monkey armed" Twins, as CT called them, and the "unnatural leg connections" of the 25th figures.

 

Why accept the one and criticize the other?

 

Well. . .that's what I'd say if I cared to pursue it that far, but I don't. I'm letting CT off the hook. I asked and he gave a valid statement. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Who's next?

 

-PJ

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I can see your point.

 

But, just so you know, those twins are in my parts bin. I use the ARAH ones as my default. And I bought the choppers for the choppers, not the twins.

 

But, I can see what you're saying. I'm just going to keep my views on the new stuff at a 'agree to disagree' level.

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Here are my reasons for it.

 

First off I don't think we need a totally new Flint. I just think they didn't go far enough with the changes. First the chest. Flint was a big barrel chested guy. The figure was like that, the card art is like that, and in the toon he is like that. Duke...is not. The chest makes him seem too "small" and not buff enough to be Flint. It looks like Flint has caught some deadly diease and he is now sick and lost a lot of weight. Some would think that is minor, but I compare it to making a Wolverine action figure that's the same height as Captain America or Cyclops. It's part of Wolverine's character to be short and that does in fact make the figure not as good as it could be. That's kinda how Flint is. If they had used Duke's chest to make a Spirit. (With the add ons of a sheath, necklace, and greandes to cover up the airborne pin) then I doubt I'd be making a fuss about it. Spirit and Duke had very simlar builds and very simlar shirts. Spirit wouldn't lose any character in reusing that mold, Flint does. At least in my opinon.

 

The arms...well as I said I counted 16 figures between 82 and 86 that have arms that could pass for Flints. Even if you discount the vehicel drivers (Like Clutch, Tollbooth, and Cutter.) and the ones that are different enough to warrant new upper arms (Tele-Viper, Shipwreck) you are still left with some pretty ionic guys like Rock N' Roll, Bazooka, Cobra Viper and Spirit that do use arms like that. Now if the line contiunes and it looks like it will, I'd be willing to bet they'll make at least one, proably more, of those 15 guys. Which means we'll get arms that would totally work for Flint, but by then it'll be too late to use them on Flint cause we already got him with Duke's Arms. I doubt they'll go back and do this whole Flint figure over again. (And even if they do it'll be years and years before they do.) This is more then likely the only chance we'll get to have this version of Flint redone. So I'll I'm saying is pony up the cash for the arms now for Flint, cause you'll be able to use them many, many more times down the road and you're going to have to make them eventually anyways. It's sorta like doing your homework on Friday. You can put it off to Sunday, but you'll still have to do it in the end...so you might as well do it on Friday so you don't have to worry about it the rest of the weekend.

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