v1 Cobra Commander Prototype

[Viper Hunter]

I feel like we're in a scene from an old Superman movie!

 

 

The Gods have spoken...

 

and TNI members have been judged "GUILTY" and condemned to an eternal exile!

 

 

 

 

 

oh shitosky!

[Jase]

MOD MODE: WHAT PART OF MY PREVIOUS POST ARE YOU GUYS NOT UNDERSTANDING? STICK TO TALKING ABOUT THE MYSTERY FIGURE. PERIOD. I'VE GIVEN PLENTY OF WARNING ALREADY.

[JoeRhyno]

I've been watching and reading the thread also, and I just wanted to back up Jase here, it's an interesting and very informative thread, at least a third of it is, the rest is crap... ahem, holdon, let me get into my mod mode...

I don't want to lock the thread, and I know Jase doesn't either, but if anyone attacks anyone else after this I'll lock it down.

 

So, please, lets stick to the subject...

 

-Joe

[cobrasaboteur]

Alright, lets leave it alone already! Seriously please everyone stop with the accusations and finger pointing...

 

Both sides have been wrong on the topic of politeness and respect, so lets start anew and just leave it at that.

 

Mods- there is no reason why this thread should be locked, please do not lock it as it really is fascinating and informative and a great addition to the tni gi joe boards.

 

-saboteur

[Viper Hunter]

MOD MODE: WHAT PART OF MY PREVIOUS POST ARE YOU GUYS NOT UNDERSTANDING? STICK TO TALKING ABOUT THE MYSTERY FIGURE. PERIOD. I'VE GIVEN PLENTY OF WARNING ALREADY.

 

 

 

Chill out!

 

 

There's nothing left to say about the "mystery figure", so it's pretty much down to speculation and skepticism over it being what it's been claimed to be.

 

We're (or I'm) having fun with some spotlighting on the fragile ego's of THOSE that take this stuff so ultra serious, so much so..that they have to beat people up over it.

 

It's obvious that there is a big concern (amongst the "expert" collectors) about repro's and the SELLING of these repro's (as originals) on eBay, and how it's potentially threatening to their REAL collections value, if every Joe Schmo gets their hands on a "prototype", but not all of us are that anal about the hobby of G.I.Joe collecting, and that shouldn't classify us as anything less of a fan or legitimate collector, if we don't know EVERYTHING nor have EVERYTHING.

 

TNI itself and it's various members (and rep) have fallen under some attack here, and some defending is going down...no biggie.

 

Worse threads are popping up somewhere else right now I'm sure, with loads of vulgar flaming within them, but this ain't one of'em.

 

Most of it's fun, some of it's serious, and heads are butting.

[Shane Turgeon]

I tend to agree that things have, for the most part, cooled down. Now it seems that we're just trying to work through the communication problems that led to this htread getting so heated in the first place. I don't see anything wrong with people trying to work that out.

 

It's obvious that there is a big concern (amongst the "expert" collectors) about repro's and the SELLING of these repro's (as originals) on eBay, and how it's potentially threatening to their REAL collections value, if every Joe Schmo gets their hands on a "prototype", but not all of us are that anal about the hobby of G.I.Joe collecting, and that shouldn't classify us as anything less of a fan or legitimate collector, if we don't know EVERYTHING nor have EVERYTHING.

 

To be perfectly honest (not rude, pompous or condescending), i'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. When did repros have any bearing on this conversation and what does it matter if some "Joe Schmo" gets thier hands on a prototype? I'd love for more people to take an active interest in learning about and collecting prototypes. Growth is what makes the hobby stay interesting. There are several coming up for sale on ebay at any given time from one seller with ties to Hasbro employees. They're out there for anyone willing to take the time to hunt for them to find. It's not an elitist thing, despite what some people might think. But it is something that needs to be learned about before it's pursued because there is a LOT to learn about the subject.

 

No one in this thread EVER stated that if you don't know or have everything that you're a not legitimate collector. No one. When i said that people who don't collect or have any knowledge about prototypes aren't in any position to be authenticating them, i meant just that. If you don't know about the subject, how can you speak on it with any authority or make claims about one?

 

It would be like taking your car to the veterinarian for repairs.

 

That's not elitism. That's simply stating a fact about life and collecting. As i said in the past, i'm all for helping people learn more about it when they want to learn. People come to me with prototype questions all the time and i'm happy to help. If i was such an elitist, i'd be doing my best NOT to share that information nor would i come to boards and take a LOT of time to try to help people out (condescension aside ).

[Viper Hunter]

As far as discussion on the "mystery figure" itself...?

 

 

Here's my 2 cents worth...

 

 

 

 

That's ridiculous looking, and I'd have absolutely no interest in having it for my collection, whether it's rare or worth millions for some "special" reason of it being a prototype.

 

It's ugly and it has straight arms (which I can't stand).

 

I have the original CC that came out during the original run, so I'm good on THAT particular figure, and mock-ups or prototypes or repro's have no appeal to me, but see...that's JUST me, and not meant to insult anybody else that DOES find items like this appealing or worth having for various reasons.

 

You GO cobrasaboteur!

 

That Cobra symbol is horrendous though, and the stripping is sloppy, and to say it's rare because it's a prototype would make it no more interesting or valuable...to ME!

 

I like G.I.Joes, and want tons of'em, but I'll NEVER sell my collection, and will likely be buried with it ( @hmmm@ ) so resale value is lost on me. I'd rather buy a huge army of one Cobra soldier, than one "rare" prototype figure that will make me the envy of all G.I.Joe collectors.

 

Now as far as the critiques on each others netiquette...I'm all done.

 

To be perfectly honest (not rude, pompous or condescending), i'm not really sure of the point you're trying to make. When did repros have any bearing on this conversation and what does it matter if some "Joe Schmo" gets thier hands on a prototype?

 

Just trying to figure out WHY cobrasaboteurs find, caused such a stir, and it's being authentic or not adding to that "stir"?

 

There's other controversial issues in the Joe collecting community, and I mentioned those, as merely a way to combine all the past topics that caused equal commotion.

 

Ebay sellers, repros, leaks, unauthentic figures etc...

 

None of them amke much difference to me, I guess.

[JayC]

 

Dude I have no idea who you are and frankly I could care less if you owned every GIJoe figure in the world, I don't appreciate you coming on here bashing my board and it's members. You want to come on here and talk and share your knowledge and maybe help CS that's great, but from your very first post you've done nothing but come off as a condensending pompous ass. If thats the best you can bring to this hobby and GIjoe then please do take it elsewhere cause it's not welcome here with all of us ignorant Joe collectors who collect these things for fun.

 

Nice. This from the guy who runs the place. I'm glad that you're OK with your members and mods slinging mud at new people who join your boards. Your boards were only trashed after people started making immature comments and indicating that i would steal an action figure i'm vehemently trying to disprove as a prototype. If you're OK with that taking place on your boards, then i pretty much stand by what i said.

 

 

Im not sure were you saw someone accusing you of wanting to steal, but from your first post you came off very condecending and then when people didn't just take your word it was all downhill from there. You had a chip on your shoulder from post 1, whether it was your intent or not, that is the impression you gave to the regulars here including me. Then to have a bunch of other people come on here who no one has ever heard of telling us we should be gratefull that you have bothered to grace us with your presence here certainly didn't help your case.

 

Now again I don't know you from a whole in the head, you may be a great collector, you may be not, but fact is untill you stick around and really come part of this community its not that odd to expect that people are gonna hold some reserve of the things you say, and getting mad and turning to insults which is exactly what you did isn't going to change that.

 

We are all equals here, and supposedly all people who collect for fun. You say no wonder people in the industry don't come here, well here is a little secret for you. This board isn't here for people of the industry, its here for the people who buy the people in the industries products.

 

So you can except that, maybe try admitting that your additude was what set then thread astray to begin and try and become part of this community because you like coversing with other collectors that share your passions (not because they so despertly need you knowledge) or you can continue to act insulted and that you did no wrong and leave never to return. It's your choice.

[Shane Turgeon]

You say no wonder people in the industry don't come here, well here is a little secret for you. This board isn't here for people of the industry, its here for the people who buy the people in the industries products.

 

I didn't say that. I said it's no wonder people don't take this place seriously. I'm not in the industry nor do i think that people in the industry really have any reason to post on message boards, unless of course they want to see what people think of their products, as it's first hand feedback. But that's neither here or there because it's not what i said.

 

So you can except that, maybe try admitting that your additude was what set then thread astray to begin and try and become part of this community because you like coversing with other collectors that share your passions (not because they so despertly need you knowledge) or you can continue to act insulted and that you did no wrong and leave never to return. It's your choice.

 

Actually, if you read the rest of my posts today i think you might see where i did say i had a part in the thread going downhill. I'm not ashamed or insulted to admit that, depsite what you all my think about my "egomaniacal" nature. Hell, i even apologized to Mike and further explained my position to him. But i certainly wasn't alone in taking the thread astray. Some TNI members played an equal part in that.

[Shane Turgeon]

Just trying to figure out WHY cobrasaboteurs find, caused such a stir, and it's being authentic or not adding to that "stir"?

 

It's not that it caused a stir. He posted on another board that he had a prototype V1 Cobra Commander, to which i remembered this thread from the first time and i knew the figure wasn't a prototype. I simply joined to tell Mike why his figure wasn't a prototype because I don't like seeing people being misinformed and seeing that misinformation spread throughout the overall community. I didn't join to be a big knowledgeable internet jerk who wants to bully Mike or other people around and I certainly didn't join to cause a stir. That came after the fact.

 

 

None of them amke much difference to me, I guess.

 

And that's certainly your perogative. But don't hold it against others who have invested a lot of time into learning about the hobby or tracking down really rare items because that's what interests us. While many people like to just collect or play with their Joes, there are a lot of others who do view these as serious collectibles. To each their own.

[Viper Hunter]

None of them amke much difference to me, I guess.

 

And that's certainly your perogative. But don't hold it against others who have invested a lot of time into learning about the hobby or tracking down really rare items because that's what interests us. While many people like to just collect or play with their Joes, there are a lot of others who do view these as serious collectibles. To each their own.

 

 

Fair enough, but you have to admit, that it's the more SERIOUS collectors, who have a lot "invested" in their own personal collections, that tend to be a bit touchy about the subject matter, and demonstrate LOW tolerance and patience, with those (like me) who are far more casual and uninformed.

 

It's all good in the BIG picture, because we're all fans to some major or minor degree.

[JayC]

I didn't say that. I said it's no wonder people don't take this place seriously. I'm not in the industry nor do i think that people in the industry really have any reason to post on message boards, unless of course they want to see what people think of their products, as it's first hand feedback. But that's neither here or there because it's not what i said.

 

Well what people would you be refering to? This isn't even a GIJoe dedicated site and yet it's one of the most active GIJoe message boards on the net so there must be a number of people who take us seriously including you since you seem to be spending alot of time here lately, but again this was during your insult tirate when you were threatening to leave us and never return, so I guess we should just except you were having a bad day and let it drop.

 

Actually, if you read the rest of my posts today i think you might see where i did say i had a part in the thread going downhill. I'm not ashamed or insulted to admit that, depsite what you all my think about my "egomaniacal" nature. Hell, i even apologized to Mike and further explained my position to him. But i certainly wasn't alone in taking the thread astray. Some TNI members played an equal part in that.

 

Your right, since you were called on the additude several times you have made an attempt to be more cival, which I do appreciate, and yes following the tone you set for this thread several TNI members responded accordingly, which now with tones changing for the better hopefully they will respond to as well.

[cobrasaboteur]

bigklop-any news? and tazzzman...whats the deal?

 

 

-saboteur

[BrotherShane]

maybe in a rush to get the mail outs out (or perhaps in the sears set) a few of these hand painted ones were popped in? Probably not, but we dont really know how these pre running change figs were packaged.

 

You may be onto something. I scanned these pics from my 1982 Sears Christmas Catalog, I never owned the Sears exclusive Cobra Command Headquarters but CC's logo looks like the one on your figure.

 

[bigklop]

Ok....Sorry it took me so long, I just got back home 1/2 an hour ago. I was able to get my mickey cc open a few minutes ago, and can report that there are NO stamps on the inside of this figure. Not in the crotch, not on the base of the head, and not on the inside of the torso pieces. Unfortunately, here is the problem; My wife and kids are gone for the night visiting relatives, and she took my digital camera. I REALLY hope it doesn't sound like I'm making excuses or lying (didn't want to open the figure last night, can't take a picture today, etc) but it's the truth. I promise once she gets home tomorrow, I will get some good pictures of the torso, head, crotch, etc. But again I would like to let you know that my CC DOES NOT have the stamps inside. All 5 of my other straight arm figures do.

 

Mike

[jabba the drunk]

Hello guys. I'm posting for the first time, but have been signed-up and communicated via PMs for awhile. Shane is a good friend of mine, so let that be known. I too am a collector of G.I.Joe preproduction, prototype, and other unique items.

 

Shane's first post was pretty direct and to the point, but not insulting. He's got plenty of experience & knowledge in this prototype area. He also mentioned a few times that he's not intending to come-off harsh, etc.

 

But if after explaining things a few times, I'd think anyone (know matter who you are) would get kinda frustrated.

 

1.) Below is a main reason why the CC isn't a prototype: RESIN

 

Secondly, the figure shown in the Hasbro photos you posted is a hardcopy, not a first shot. That means it was handmade out of resin and then completely hand painted, not injection molded in production quality and colour plastics with only a portion of it handpainted (and poorly at that). You can also see the differences in the cod piece between the hardcopy in the photos and the one you have - the cod piece is much thicker as opposed to the one on the production example you have.

 

Hardcopies are made of resin, not the regular Gijoe plastic. Resin is a MUCH heavier substance. Unless the CC is very heavy, and has a mostly unpainted internal pieces (which it doesn't judging from the pics Sabateur provided)...then it's not a hardcopy.

 

Hand painted hardcopies were used for internal promotion pictures, catalog and dealer catalog pictures. They are used because this photography work needs to get completed, while the manufacturing process being processed. They don't wait until they get painted production versions to start taking catalog pics.

 

So, because of this I'm sorry to say that this CC can't be a hardcopy prototype. I wish it were, as it'd be pretty darn cool to see this show up.

 

2.) This CC in question's History:

 

I spoke with the seller of this item. He's a Gijoe collector out of North Carolina and has been selling off much of his collection. Out of respect for privacy for Sabateur, I'll not post the direct link to the auction in which Sabateur won this CC.

 

As Sabateur stated earlier in this thread, the seller has NO information behind this figure. He said he didn't even realize it had a different symbol until he auctioned it. I asked plenty of questions, like "Did you get it in Rhode Island?", "Do you have ANY possible connections with Hasbro, or former/current workers?", "Do you happen to remember purchasing any large lots of figures from sellers in Rhode Island"?, etc.etc.

 

He said he doesn't know anything about it and said he has no idea where he got it.

 

Now, if you've tried searching for unique/preproduction G.I.Joe items you know that there is always a story, or provenance (see Shane's first post) behind the figure. These were made 25 years ago, and that's not a long time. There should absolutely be a "paper trail" if you will tracing the item back to some connection with a Hasbro employee.

 

3.) Finding ONE "prototype" is AMAZING! When TWO show-up...well lets jus say it's incredibly unlikely:

 

Both Sabateur and Tazzman have these different CC's with the odd symbols. There is no traceable source on the one Sabateur owns, and I'd venture to guess the same holds true for Tazzman's (but I'd love to know the history).

 

Thought there's no scientific rule of thumb to prove otherwise, when two untraceable "rare" items pop-up...it's very unlikely that these have any legitimate authenticity.

 

So, in closing hopefully all 'Joe collector's can get some good information out of reading this thread about prototypes. So in the future, people can be more prepared as to what to look for, what questions to ask, etc. No body want's to be taken for any big $$ on faked or 'undocumented' items.

[Draven79]

I have not chimmed in on this whole CC debate here like I did with Tazz's, but I do have some prototype knowledge and I can say once again that this is not a prototype like the new guys are saying. I am not going to repeat what Jabba just posted, as he nailed it why not imo.

Draven

[leonardo]

 

and tm....all you have contributed to this is sarcasm and smack talk. good job

 

Hmm I don't think it's fair you're singling it out TM when we get a bunch of noobies on the site, some basically attacking as well. You've been good contributing, but I think most people in the thread have been better at ignoring any snide or rude comments, and I think TM's comments have been the most lighthearted while still being relevant as opposted to one of the newbies basically telling cobrasaboteur to shut his suck (?) and you say nothing about it? If you're going to be rude and sarcastic to tm (which is exactly what you're blaming him for right?) then you should have the same comments for the other guys. And before anyone thinks I'm TM's beeyotch, I'm not but this just really bugged me.

 

 

Anyway, I didn't know Joe was so complicated back in the day! Thanks to guys like Shane, bigfan, and Redclaw (I use yojoe a lot, awesome site!) for posting relevant and interesting facts, and to the o/p for livening up this board!

 

 

Albeit Shane may come off as a know it all, but that’s normally the case when someone who does know what they are talking about speaks and the listener does not have the intelligence to shut his suck and listen. They sad truth is you all deserve you ignorance and will always be viewed as “how cute you collect action figures“.

[cobrasaboteur]

Jabba, thanks for the post but we kinda ruled that out a while ago... like i said in one of my previous posts this is not resin so that would rule out a "prototype" label to this figure...however it could be a first shot, or maybe these were actually a few of these were actually sold to customers in the VERY early production of this figure. That would explain the reason tazzzman's and mine are similar.

 

Bigklop- thanks for the info, this is very interesting.

 

I dont know why tazzzman hasnt posted about his figure... If his does not have the stamps as well (which i am assuming it probably doesnt) then it makes it highly unlikely that two kids got these VERY early figures (we know they are fairly rare now because so far 1 out of my 8 figures are this type and 1 out of 6 figures of bigklops are like this.) and painted them almost identically.

 

I just wish he'd post soon....

 

If we were able to compare the paint of the symbol on our two figures that would be VERY useful as well.

 

-saboteur

[cobrasaboteur]

for easy comparison

 

my fig

 

 

tazzzman's fig

 

 

once again...not saying these are prototype resin figs....there has to be more to these two figures though...the paint looks like it matches(they are a bit lighter than the production symbols) Like i said, they could have been first shots or VERY early figures sold to the public that needed to be hand painted because the symbol was not ready and they needed to get some figs out very quick. (possibly very early production sears sets?)

 

theres just no possible way two kids not knowing each other would paint two of these symbols almost identical to each other....the argument that they used the pictures in the catalog as reference just isnt a valid point BECAUSE...there just isnt any detail in those photos.

 

with having just those blurry photos where you cannot tell ANYthing about the cobra symbol except that it was a bit oversized these two unrelated kids both made these almost identical symbols?

 

some interesting notes about the two symbols-

the fangs- both are straight short lines down (cant see this in any of the preprod photos so there would be no way for the kids to know)

 

the mouth- not decipherable in the preprod photos as well however both mouths are VERY similar

 

the outside curved lines and the dots instead of lines also speak for themselves...if a kid was to repaint this figure chances is he would put lines (like his cobra soldier's symbol) instead of dots like BOTH of these two figures have.

 

too much of a coincidence that these symbols are so similar, and too unlikely that two unrelated kids would paint something like that on both of their pre changing run cobra commanders with only the photo on the back of the carrying case and in the pamphlets which all show NO detail of the cobra symbol.

 

 

 

-saboteur

[bigfan]

there is no way that a figure with a symbol like that would be sold.

 

 

 

i have a new theory though

 

they are similar enough to be perhaps a stamp.

maybe there was a stamp available in the early 80's that would fit this description?

 

i would really like to see this in hand... is there any way? ill even pay shipping. express or whatnot

 

lmk

[RedClaw]

for easy comparison

 

Just for the sake of observation, the two logos between your figure and Tazz's are different. Not only the missing stripe, but their thickness, general location, basically everything is different except for the general geometry.

 

It's one heck of a coincidence - no doubt about that - but no, it's not a first run variant logo.

 

Take the logos, in photoshop, center them one over the other, and reduce the transparency of the top layer - they are not even close to being symmetrical.

 

It's just a really spooky, unique, coincidence.

 

I scaled and merged the two images in Photoshop, and here are the results that I was speaking about. The logos are placed differently and share a similar look but that's about it.

 

[cobrasaboteur]

bigfan- this may have been stamped...but not by a kid. It is possible that hasbro may have used a stamp before they got the mickey mouse symbol all set.

 

The reason i say not by a kid is because tazzzman mentioned that his legs to this figure were also "prototype" (this was before we knew that these figs couldnt be because they are not resin). This suggests that his figure also has the thicker red line down its side... yet another sign that these two figures were not done by two unrelated kids.

 

Redclaw- i realize that these two symbols are not exactly the same...as for the missing stripe-tazzzman's has paint wear up around that part of the symbol (look at the mouth for example) it is not unlikely that one of the stripes rubbed off (like one of the stripes in my mmcc's symbol *see other pic*) or these were handpainted very quickly and the stripe was simply left out.

 

That photoshop thing proves absolutely nothing for a number of reasons...and to say that this is just a "spooky coincidence" just isnt acceptable, especially with all the clues.

 

but no, it's not a first run variant logo.

the temerity! look at the symbols! there is NO way two kids from different parts of the country could come up with these symbols just by looking at the preproduction pictures which have NO detail whatsoever.

 

-saboteur

 

bigfan- i will think about sending the figure, but i would really like to find out what's up with tazzzman's first.

 

also-this was very early in the line-we know that the sears set would have been the FIRSt thing to feature cobra commander. In the very early sets it is possible that they didnt have the symbol or the paint masks set out. Like i said, it could also be a first shot, but that would be less likely because there are two.

[bigfan]

while tazz's symbol is much rougher there are certainly some similarity

 

i am not closing the door on a possible logo variation here but there are 3 things that we need to verify it

 

1 i need to see the fig in person...and it would help if i could have tazz's as well for comparison

 

2 we need to find as many possible pics of this logo in any catalogs sales books etc we can

 

3 we need more examples of this figure.

 

if this was a logo variant more than 2 will be around.

[Jeff]

bigfan- this may have been stamped...but not by a kid. It is possible that hasbro may have used a stamp before they got the mickey mouse symbol all set.

 

The reason i say not by a kid is because tazzzman mentioned that his legs to this figure were also "prototype" (this was before we knew that these figs couldnt be because they are not resin). This suggests that his figure also has the thicker red line down its side... yet another sign that these two figures were not done by two unrelated kids.

 

Redclaw- i realize that these two symbols are not exactly the same...as for the missing stripe-tazzzman's has paint wear up around that part of the symbol (look at the mouth for example) it is not unlikely that one of the stripes rubbed off (like one of the stripes in my mmcc's symbol *see other pic*) or these were handpainted very quickly and the stripe was simply left out.

 

That photoshop thing proves absolutely nothing for a number of reasons...and to say that this is just a "spooky coincidence" just isnt acceptable, especially with all the clues.

 

but no, it's not a first run variant logo.

the temerity! look at the symbols! there is NO way two kids from different parts of the country could come up with these symbols just by looking at the preproduction pictures which have NO detail whatsoever.

 

-saboteur

 

bigfan- i will think about sending the figure, but i would really like to find out what's up with tazzzman's first.

 

Saboteur, what are you hoping to accomplish in this thread? Everyone has pretty much said this figure isn't what you thought it was, now you obviously are not going to except anyones reasoning for it, but I don't think you are going to convince anyone else that this is something more then an oddity. If you're happy with the figure, thats great but don't you think its time to let this thread die?