FF cartoon pulled....what about the figures?

[boff123]

please don't compare ff to jlu. jlu is infinitely better. the story and character development were top notch (save for a couple of episodes). ff is a pos. glad they cancelled it. back to more anime garbage.

[slao]

please don't compare ff to jlu. jlu is infinitely better. the story and character development were top notch (save for a couple of episodes). ff is a pos. glad they cancelled it. back to more anime garbage.

 

Absolutely, JLU was a great show. When you think of it, Marvel hasn't had a solid cartoon since the '90s.

[evenflow]

I would have liked a BAF mole monster

[boff123]

i did like the protos of animated doom, hulk, & mole monster. the others were crap.

[ToodlesMrJim]

I really really really liked this show, I thought it was quite funny... I loved the hulk episode...

[ARROW]

 

Is it that pinata cartoon or the winx club? Those are the only two cartoons I can think of that is on Fox Kids

 

Nope, its called Chaotic, and I'm less than thrilled with how it looks on screen.

Its also quite annoying when you bust your ass storyboarding a show, try to put something in it to make it something, and when you see it air it not only disappoints but they LEAVE OFF ALL THE CREDITS.

 

I tried out for FF as well last year, sent in my resume and samples to Moonscoop, got a good response, got a start date and then.............nothing happened. Something else came along then anyway and I went and did another job instead-was probably for the best.

[Ashtalon]

I thought it was pretty decent. I actually laughed at some moments in a few of the episodes.

 

The redesign of the costumes were unnecessary, though. I really liked the opening theme. I also like the interaction between characters as well.

 

To be honesty, I like Bruce Timm's DC cartoons, but I've grown tired of his style. I think his team grew pretty confident with their style and were given quite a latitude by DC/Warner. I think he respected his source material and tried to keep things within the realm of the comics.

 

Marvel's cartoons on the other hand have always seem disjointed. They're not given any kind of adequate budget and don't seem to have a very confident vision. They also tend to stray from their source material too much. The best Marvel animation were the 2nd seasons of the 90s Iron Man and FF shows. They were near direct translations of comic stories. I liked Ultimate Avengers (haven't watched the 2nd movie yet). I think if that creative team were given a series and a budget relative to the movie, they could produce an interesting series that would hit a nice stride after a handful of episodes or so to work out kinks.

 

For those that liked the 90s X-Men show....well...it sucked. I knew it at the time. The animation improved for the last few episodes, but I think the writing and particularily the acting were pretty terrible. Another advantage of the Timm DC stuff...they had great actors.

[Doom Saber]

 

Is it that pinata cartoon or the winx club? Those are the only two cartoons I can think of that is on Fox Kids

 

Nope, its called Chaotic, and I'm less than thrilled with how it looks on screen.

Its also quite annoying when you bust your ass storyboarding a show, try to put something in it to make it something, and when you see it air it not only disappoints but they LEAVE OFF ALL THE CREDITS.

 

I tried out for FF as well last year, sent in my resume and samples to Moonscoop, got a good response, got a start date and then.............nothing happened. Something else came along then anyway and I went and did another job instead-was probably for the best.

 

 

You worked on that? I forgot about that show. l seen the first episode and seems like a yugioh like cartoon

[The Avenger]

Like others already stated, the toyline was cancelled before the show even started to air.

 

Personally couldn't care less about them cancelling the show, I never even bothered to watch it. Don't like the F4, and I hate the way they looked in this toon.

 

But I would've liked to get that Skrull and Mole Monster figures from the toyline. Kinda sad, but not heartbroken at all.

 

The tru travesty is that awful new Scooby and Shaggy show, they totally stripped Scooby Doo of what made him an icon for 30 + years.

[thanos0341]

I really really really liked this show, I thought it was quite funny... I loved the hulk episode...

 

 

And that's probaly one of the main reasons this show got pulled!

 

FF is not supposed to be funny, it's supposed to be action filled with the FF traveling all over the galaxy fighting the Kree, Shiar, Skrulls, etc. When on earth, they shoulda been spending less time stuck in the Baxter building with Ben & Johnny playing jokes on each other & more time throwing down with Namor, Galactus & the Surfer!

 

The writing & animation were pretty bad IMO, I hated the manga anime look!

 

As I stated before, the 2nd season of the 90s FF cartoon was & still is the best animated rendition of the FF ever!

[Guest DavAnthony]

Awful shows like Ed, eddy and whatever, Naruto and any crap that ends in " igmon" seems to go on forever. But shows that are decent get canned. Fantastic four wasn't perfect but it had good voice-acting and reminded me of the good cartoons of the 80's.

It seems anything that requires effort is a nuiscance for Catoon network. They didn't even have it listed as being on their "station" until the 3rd week that the show was on.

Can we please get a real cartoon station or network and let cartoon network stay with the overused stylized crap of today.

[slao]

For those that liked the 90s X-Men show....well...it sucked. I knew it at the time. The animation improved for the last few episodes, but I think the writing and particularily the acting were pretty terrible. Another advantage of the Timm DC stuff...they had great actors.

 

I hate to say it, but I have to flat out disagree with you on that. The original X-Men cartoon was the pioneer for Marvel cartoons in the '90s. At the time, you couldn't find a more true to comic cartoon adaptation of something as popular as the X-Men...so I had to give them props for that. While the stories were used from the older comics and they went ahead and used the '90s X-men, the cartoon was still well done.

 

The animation may not have been the best in the latter episodes, but it was pretty consistent and decent for the first 4 seasons. I think you have things a little backwards in terms of the quality of the animation though. When the show was first aired, the animation was provided by Graz Entertainment. The last 6 episodes of the Fifth season were then produced under Saban Entertainment, which meant new character designs, backgrounds, and color schemes. In my opinion, this was when the animation was really weak. The writing of the show was never an issue, if anything it was the last 6 episodes that were weak in that dept. too...especially the episode: "Jubilee's Fairytale." The voice acting was very good throughout the show I'd say, it consisted of veteran voice actors. While they may not have had the connections or resources to get famous Hollywood actors as guest stars, the voice talent they did have was pretty good.

[DOOM]

I only managed to catch a couple of the episodes, but I enjoyed the show. My immediate first impression was the sucky half-anime style animation and I didn't like the futuristic setting. I warmed to the show quickly with the dead-on representations of the characters personalities. I felt the same way about FF the movie, except on that I HATED and still HATE how Doom was done. But the FF were so comic-accurate in personality and attitude that made up for the crappy portrayal of my namesake.

Long live the FF Animated Series... it died before its time...

 

DOOM HAS SPOKEN!

[ARROW]

Awful shows like Ed, eddy and whatever, Naruto and any crap that ends in " igmon" seems to go on forever. But shows that are decent get canned.

 

Its hard to qualify what's "decent"--because if its only you liking it, its not always good product. Ed, Edd and Eddy is top-rated, always has been. The show is a #$#@# and a half to produce because Danny Antonucci is a pretty tough taskmaster--but the end-product bears out.

 

The animation may not have been the best in the latter episodes, but it was pretty consistent and decent for the first 4 seasons. I think you have things a little backwards in terms of the quality of the animation though. When the show was first aired, the animation was provided by Graz Entertainment. The last 6 episodes of the Fifth season were then produced under Saban Entertainment, which meant new character designs, backgrounds, and color schemes. In my opinion, this was when the animation was really weak.

That incarnation of the X-men was weak all acorss the board. The art-styling was horrid. Instead of utilizing cross-hatching like in the comics, they tried to convey the same kind of spotted "blacks" by using some really badly placed black areas. It never worked and it was a ugly eye-sore, imo.

X-men Evolution, though divergent, was far better in styling and had some good stories to boot.

 

Except for the 90's Spiderman series, none of the Marvel cartoons from that time were any good--though the X-men pilot " Pryde of the X-men" remains probably the best stab at those characters. Wolverine's Assise accent notwithstanding...

 

As an aside: in the mid-to-late 90's there were other Marvel cartoons planned. The aborted Captain America one is known about and was reported in the fan press, but there were others.

I personally of development work having been done on a proposed Thor series, some featuring Scarlet Witch and Quicksliver, Power Pack, Black Panther, the Defenders, and Iron Fist. Nothing came of any of those though--which is a shame.

 

Also, when I saw the design this new FF cartoon had for Dr. Doom--I had a bit of a puzzle. The costume design of Doom used in the live-action film was a concession made for live-action.....not a very good one, but one made nevertheless. It was chosen to make the character "less cartoony".

Using the same design in the cartoon made no sense at all, as animation doesn't need that kind of a concession........and its a cartoon after all.

[kingsaint]

Someone said they were kaput in Toyfare magazine

[Guest DavAnthony]

Arrow,

Well you are of course entitled to your opinion but I still think it sucks the big knee.

[slao]

The animation may not have been the best in the latter episodes, but it was pretty consistent and decent for the first 4 seasons. I think you have things a little backwards in terms of the quality of the animation though. When the show was first aired, the animation was provided by Graz Entertainment. The last 6 episodes of the Fifth season were then produced under Saban Entertainment, which meant new character designs, backgrounds, and color schemes. In my opinion, this was when the animation was really weak.

That incarnation of the X-men was weak all acorss the board. The art-styling was horrid. Instead of utilizing cross-hatching like in the comics, they tried to convey the same kind of spotted "blacks" by using some really badly placed black areas. It never worked and it was a ugly eye-sore, imo.

X-men Evolution, though divergent, was far better in styling and had some good stories to boot.

 

Except for the 90's Spiderman series, none of the Marvel cartoons from that time were any good--though the X-men pilot " Pryde of the X-men" remains probably the best stab at those characters. Wolverine's Assise accent notwithstanding...

 

I'll have to say I agree with you concerning that crappy animation toward the end of the '90s X-Men cartoon...yep, it was the "black" shading on the characters that looked pretty awful. You are the animation expert, so I'm giddy because you agree with me @bounce@

 

Yet, still to this day I hate X-Men Evolution with a passion...it came across as a show that tried so hard to be hip and stylish by mixing an animated Saved by the Bell series with the X-Men. Story-wise, I really didn't see anything too redeeming about the show either. I never cared for the animation style of the show, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

 

"Pryde of the X-Men" was certainly top-notch in animation, especially for the late '80s, 1989 was it? It was leaps and bounds better in animation quality than both the X-Men cartoons that followed. To this day, I still enjoy watching that pilot episode.

 

I wasn't that into the '90s Spider-Man cartoon after the 2nd season, but I really enjoyed the second seasons of both Iron-Man and Fantastic Four. The animation improved and so did the stories. Yet, a few of the lamest Marvel cartoons that followed were Silver Surfer and the Avengers. It was a shame too because I remember how much I was looking forward to them.

[ARROW]

Yet, a few of the lamest Marvel cartoons that followed were Silver Surfer and the Avengers. It was a shame too because I remember how much I was looking forward to them.

 

I came within a hairs-breadth of storyboarding on Silver Surfer. The animation studio I owned at that time was hired to do some stock walk cycles for the show and I kept hounding our producer to hound THEIR producer to get me some 'boards. I ended up working on something for Stephen Spielberg and Harve Bennett instead: Invasion America. Silver Surfer was a bit of a headache for me at the studio......the young animators we had gotten to tackle the animation.......well, some of them had NEVER HEARD of the character before. Oy vey.

Trying to get them to understand what a "Kirby squiggle" is and how to animate it properly........took some doing.

SS, as a animated series, was typical of a lot of Marvel series at the time-they locked onto one "thing" to the detriment of everything else. In the show's case it was the "Kirby" look. The art of Kirby was only part of the appeal of the character and, unfortunately, the story crew, and layout artists didn't seem to grasp what made his stuff work. Oddly, the best Kirby stuff was done over by Bruce Timm and his crews on the various DC cartoons. They tended to get it right.

 

FF was something that was going to be corny out of the gate. I knew about the comedy thrust early on and while it was chosen to make it different, I think they lost an opportunity doing it.

In a way, I'm glad I didn't get to work on it.

 

Recently there's been a number of "action-comedy" cartoons made.....and I think they all fall flat. over a year ago, I 'boarded for Class of the Titans and it was in the same vein. IMO, it fell flat because the empahsis was too much on the goofiness and not enough on the danger and derring-do. Teen Titans is the same way....and I loathe that cartoon, though other DC cartoons like JLU have episodes where they HAVE struck a balance between comedy and action.

 

With FF, pushing the yucks is okay, but the action stuff really needs to be over the top to provide a good contrast. That kind of thing is harder to do, because its harder to control the interpretation of how action sequences are staged dramatically.

A series really needs someone to champion the thing and push a certain style hard. Good example is the older series Mummies Alive. The guys producing that show had a VERY clear idea of what they wanted , and go it.

 

Rest assured though.........there's going to be more superhero cartoons coming, from both Marvel and DC and hopefully they'll get enough of them right.

[thanos0341]

There is hardly anything more I can possibly add to Arrow's post. But I'll try. The Marvel & DC universes are made up of heroes & villians, good vs evil, plain & simple. IMO, there is little room for comedy in superhero comics or animated cartoons. JL/JLU succeeded because they were experts at throwing in just the right amount of funny scenes, moments or lines, but they knew they also had to add the main component to the episode & that was cool, kick butt battle/fight scenes.

 

FF failed miserably in that department. They tried to be a funny cartoon instead of an action packed cartoon. The 2nd season of the 90s FF cartoon had some funny Johhny/Ben moments, but it mostly stayed true to the action scenes & featured some good, kick butt fights, for example, the episode "Nightmare in Green" had way more brutal & better fight scenes between the Hulk/Thing than that wussy brawl in the recent episode Hulk was in.

 

Sad to hear that people working on the Silver Surfer series didn't even know who he was or Kirby for that matter! You need people working on a superhero cartoon that know & love the character/characters & grew up reading about them & know what makes them tick. That's why BTAS/STAS/JL/JLU excelled & lasted for over 14 great yrs!

 

I highly doubt Marvel cartoons will ever equal that type of success unless they respect the source material & don't try & change/alter it to fit in with what they think it should be or cuz they think it will be hip & cool to do so. there's an old saying...if it's not broke, don't fix it!

[Postalboy]

It may not have been all it could have been but I enjoyed it still. This cancelation and some of your comments just make me want to pick up the 90s FF dvd set even more. Somehow I missed most of those 90s Marvel cartoons, with the exception of X-men (which I loved).

[ARROW]

Sad to hear that people working on the Silver Surfer series didn't even know who he was or Kirby for that matter! You need people working on a superhero cartoon that know & love the character/characters & grew up reading about them & know what makes them tick. That's why BTAS/STAS/JL/JLU excelled & lasted for over 14 great yrs!

 

No, actually most people working on the shows are often completely ignorant (and indifferent) about the characters/properties they work on. Its usually just another job to them.

What makes the difference is a couple of things:

One- that the scriptwriters/directors and storyboard people know enough about the property and characters to treat them properly.

Two: that the directors and producers are big enough a-holes and vicious taskmasters ( or charming enough)to get what they want, no matter who it pisses off.

 

Shows like BTAS/STAS/JL/JLU are very, very hard to make. That's why we see so few series like them. It takes a demanding personality with a definite vision to pull it off.

Often times those kinds of productions will insist upon a overseas supervisor (basically one of us guys from North America sent over to Korea or wherever) to oversee the out-sourced animation and layouts.

That stage, done after storyboarding and sheet-timing, is what the show rests on because those are the drawings and such that will end up on screen. Usually this is done by the bulk of the people that know jack-squat about the characters.

The layout people--who prep the animation scenes by drawing them up from the storyboard art to include the correct character designs and major poses for the action--usually just photocopy up the storyboard art itself.

The animators take their cues right from the layouts and timing charts therein. Usually their only "thinking" is to maintain the designs of the characters and follow any explicit instructions for the scene. Their creative/imaginative input is close to nil.

The whole process is meant to be as mechanical as possible, so as to save time.

This is why a lot of cartoons look wrose than feature animated cartoons.

 

The pitfall is in the layout step.

If the layout people cannot ( or will not) translate the storyboard art properly--putting in the proper feel or strength into a pose, then they can kill a scene at that stage. Again, because they literally just blow up the drawings and trace them off, if they feel lazy that day......a otherwise good scene can die.

Overseas supers can often help prevent such things, but with 400-500 or more scenes in a show--all to be animated in a WEEK or two--there's a lot that has to be let go as is.

 

Of course that quite a ways down the line of production--a show can die in the script stage too.

Sometimes you just get a "dumb" story that someone..............someone must have thought was funny, but no-one else really does. Sometimes people try to inject something into the thing......to bring it to life, give it more bang.......and because of politics on the show, that stuff get's nixed and the dumb stuff is all that remains.

Seen that happen a few times personally.

 

 

 

The big problem is that there's a real need to make each of these shows different, they must be their own animal. That is why something like Teen Titans became a horrible faux-anime "parody", and Krypto because a kiddie comedy. Superman became a brighter, "happier" cartoon while Batman stayed darker and more sombre.

The Batman is a anomaly.......its covering ground that BTAS has covered.......but its just redressed with a different style.

Its also why a long-proposed Green Lantern series might be a ways off, and why we got X-men Evolution and will get Wolverine and the X-men..........all because being different is that important. If they cannot be different and make it work........they won't go ahead---which is why Captain America was never realized as a cartoon. They figured the kiddies wouldn't get a character permanently set in WW2........and they are right.

 

I think a good example might be..........Disney's Gargoyles. Light stuff, mixed with some good action--but maybe not quite enough to truly satisfy. BTAS and JL has some great serious episodes..........but having all superhero cartoons played straight??? Nah, I don't think that's viable or desirable.

[ARES-god_of_war]

So Arrow...if someone wanted to develop a pitch for Adult Swim, what kind of stuff would they need to throw in to the treatment? I gotta killer Idea but I have no "juice" in the industry what-so-ever!

[JFAK075]

Oh, that sucks. I like it much better then the new "Justice League" show. I wish I had kept a couple episodes on m TiVo. Damn.

[Guest DavAnthony]

Well Fantastic four was definatley better then any of the recent Transformer shows (Energon, Armada and cybertron) and it was a hell of alot better then Sigma Six and yet we see that show continue. I think alot of it has to do with cartoon network. They like weird anime/sylized shows like Naruto and the other annoying ones I mentioned. Anything that isn't stylized or anime they put very little backing into it. I mean they advertised Naruto 3-4 times during Fantastic Four. Huge noisy graphics would come up from the bottom of the screen, detracting from the show, and then make some annoying noise and then go back down (after about 10 seconds).

That's just obnoxious, but they are an obnoxious station and simply play into the lack of effort or quality that is evident in regular T.V. series and cartoons nowadays.

[ARROW]

So Arrow...if someone wanted to develop a pitch for Adult Swim, what kind of stuff would they need to throw in to the treatment? I gotta killer Idea but I have no "juice" in the industry what-so-ever!

 

Do a search on-line for "Animation Pitch-bibles" or "pitch books" and that might get you going in the right direction.

 

They like weird anime/sylized shows like Naruto and the other annoying ones I mentioned. Anything that isn't stylized or anime they put very little backing into it. I mean they advertised Naruto 3-4 times during Fantastic Four. Huge noisy graphics would come up from the bottom of the screen, detracting from the show, and then make some annoying noise and then go back down (after about 10 seconds).

That's just obnoxious, but they are an obnoxious station and simply play into the lack of effort or quality that is evident in regular T.V. series and cartoons nowadays.

 

Thing is, kids love that stuff. They like the noise and flash and such......its why Spongebob is so popular. Networks that market their stuff like this are just aiming it all right at their target demographic--the kids. You and I are not it, so we tend to find it annoying.