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Superman is not American anymore


Wandye

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I never really saw it as it meaning he was American. I thought Truth,Justice, and the American way meant that he was protecting the american way for the world. What we stand for in other words. Freedom, etc.. he's upholding it all over the earth.

 

 

exactly... the American way IS the protecting of the entire world!

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Yeah, I'd have to agree with Arrow's rebutal in that the phrase "American Way" does not entail the sentiment that it carried when it was scribed in the 40's. I always understood the phrase to mean "Truth, Justice, and DEMOCRACY". However, in today's information-driven world of literal-dissecting, even this could be misinterpreted to mean that Superman sides with Democrats and is against Republicans LOL. The information-age has opened the windows to the World and it is now more important to choose one's words wisely. I too, think it was a bit distastful to alter an icon's mantra, but in some ways demonstrates a more open-minded and less egotistical approach to projecting the "American Dream". What really frightens me, is that Lex's personna seemed to more accurately portray the contemporary "American Way"(politically speaking)! Just ask any struggling American farmer or small business owner.

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I think some of ya are taking this too seriously. I think the american way was just a way for Superman to say "Truth, Justice, and society." I don't think he is sayin it to imply that he is showing others that he is American. Would be crazy if he went around the world, saying "American way" to imply that he is american.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but "Truth, Justice, and Society"???? Sorry, but that's patently absurd. All societies are not the same - ask anyone who has had to flee Nazi Germany, Japanese-occupied China, North Korea, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, the Sudan, etc..

 

#US1#

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Anyone who read the wretchedly awful "Superman - Red Son" miniseries will understand how that mythos is tied to America. In that series, Superman crash landed in the Soviet Union and was raised as a Soviet hero. But instead of being a portrayed as a highly dangerous threat to humanity (which a Soviet Superman would have been; make no mistake about it), he was illogically transformed into a misguided but ultimately well-meaning individual. In other words, they reverted the character to his originally constructed form - an American form. The Americans in the story, who were trying to defend themselves, were naturally portrayed as "the real threat". This, too, is completely out-of-synch with actual history. But what should we expect from a comics writer (Mark Millar) who openly claims an affectation for left-wing, Marxist politics? (I will admit this one thing about Millar. Strangely enough, he is the only writer at Marvel who actually understands the character of Captain America. His Cap, as written in "The Ultimates", is very true-to-form).

I'm not sure you understood the comic. If you look at American comics from the end of WWII to the fall of the Soviet Union, you find tons of outright American propoganda, where Russia and it's citizens were portrayed as being inferior, barbaric, and sometimes outright evil. 'Good' Russain characters, like Black Widow, were (and still are) few and far between, and often great pains were taken to show them as refugees who had completely abondoned thier country and everything it stood for.

 

Red Sun was born of Millar's interest in what Superman would have been like if he was created by Communist Russians, how he would have been portrayed, and what sort of propoganda he would promote. The story isn't just the one in the comic, but also his idea of how the USSR would have portrayed Superman if he were an icon created in thier country.

Frankly, although I know it will never be done, I'd love to see a movie where Superman goes to Afghanistan and kicks some Taliban ass. These scumbags are every bit as evil as the Nazis were, but in today's PC world, we can't show that. I wonder why?? Could it have anything to do with the "blame America first" crowd that writes much of what comes out of Hollywood? Seems likely, given that they won't say "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" anymore.

So you'd like to put Superman back in the 40s, when he proudly advocated that people 'Slap a Jap' by buying war bonds? I guess in this case it would be something more like 'Blow up some towelheads-join the Army!' Personally, I fear the day something that you (and many others) so highly regard as a completely American icon proudly punches stereotypes in the name of this country again.

 

The world is, frankly, more complex today than it used to be. The 'us versus them' mentality you want your heroes to have just doesn't exist anymore. America isn't supposed to be an island, a bully, or the conscience of the world. It shouldn't act like it, and it shouldn't advocate its icons to be like that. This is, of course, the sort of leftist, 'anti-American' viewpoint you disapprove of. I'd argue that it's the modern, logical viewpoint.

 

(By the way, my apologies to anyone who was offended by the words 'Jap' or 'towelhead'. These words were used only to illustrate my point. Sadly, such ads- and beliefs -really did exist and were accepted by the populace, and if we're not careful, they will be again.)

 

Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history. Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism? You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage. Thanks to them, one of the world's most despicable regimes got the atomic bomb. But I suppose, based on your comments, you'd think that was peachy because they needed to protect themselves from the bad, old USA. FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

 

Now, onto Afghanistan, "towel-heads", and "Jap-slapping" (your comments, not mine). Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that. There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact. Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament. Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath. By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead. You should be very proud to boast of your affectation for this "modern, logical point of view". Very proud indeed.

 

#US1#

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Some crazy #$#$# on the bus the other day was preaching that Superman is a media tool of Christianity in cooperation of our right-wing Conservative Government to brainwash people about Jesus and war and such. Then he segwayed into how you should convert to Islam.

 

No thanks. As cool as Muhammad might be, his cartoons can get you killed. I'll stick to Superman, thank you very much.

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some jewish guy wrote a book that supes was a jew that came out last week.

 

Coincedentally, "some jewish guy" also created Superman.

 

Superman came to this country illegally. If he wants to be an American and stand for "the American Way", that's great. But he needs to abide by our laws. He needs to return to his nation, and get in the back of the line. I'm all for Superman coming here to live with us, but if we let him do it without going through the proper channels, we make a mockery of our laws. And we are a nation of laws.

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They actually did a segment on World News Tonight a couple of nights ago on this very topic. Saddly, the only reason they gave to justify taking out the American Way was because American movies make so much of their money from foreign audiences and a lot of foreigners DON'T like America. Let that soak in for a second. It's really sad. One person interviewed in the segment said it best, "We hate America, but please, send us more Baywatch."

 

Hey, I have an idea, the next time I watch Aname I think I'll #$## about how big-eyed, blonde-haired, english-speaking heros are always saving Tokyo instead of New York. Because that really affects my enjoyment of the actual movie.

 

 

Rediculous.

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I think some of ya are taking this too seriously. I think the american way was just a way for Superman to say "Truth, Justice, and society." I don't think he is sayin it to imply that he is showing others that he is American. Would be crazy if he went around the world, saying "American way" to imply that he is american.

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but "Truth, Justice, and Society"???? Sorry, but that's patently absurd. All societies are not the same - ask anyone who has had to flee Nazi Germany, Japanese-occupied China, North Korea, the Soviet Union, Cambodia, the Sudan, etc..

 

#US1#

 

I understand that not all societies are the same, but what I meant is that he is doing the things that abids to that society's law. I guess I should have said the freedom of mankind, but I ran out of words to say yesterday and society was the best I can think of.

 

If you think about it, "American way" is pretty outdated for today's standard and means something completely different than it did before. Superman back than was the pre-crisis version who like Batman, protected his own city rather than the world on a daily basis. However, since the character has evolved and branched his services global, using the world "American way" doesn't seem to work anywhere else expect America. Furthermore, "American way" just seems something that isn't used here anyway. Seem obselate and I think it works for the old comics since they were gay as in happy when pared with the post crisis universe. I always found Superman to be arrogrant and a dick, but I wouldn't see him going go so far as to say "American Way" to foreign countries just to pissed them off.

 

As for illegal immigration laws, what makes superman so different than any other illegal aliens aside from super powers? For those who are against illegals from Mexico, surely has to be against Superman. I don't see why Superman should get special treatment other than saving the world from Luthor day by day. Just saying that some of you guys may overlook Superman since he is a superhero or he is your favorite character.

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Well, I'm going to wade into this........

 

 

Its was written quite a while ago that Superman no longer fights for the American Way, and hasn't for some time( John Byrne was cited as saying as much when he re-vamped Superman for the Man of Steel mini-series in the mid 80's).

He does, however, fight for the American Dream, which is really something else.

 

The American Way, in view of the rest of the world has become something tainted, but the American Dream still stands quite strong.

 

The American Way has changed quite a bit from the times when the by-line was first written, and these days, there's some trepidation about the "way" of America.

As has been said by others in this thread, its not always a "way" to aspire to.

The American Dream however is all about justice, fairness, compassion, prosperity, and equality---all traits that the character of Superman stands for.

 

So, yea, the American way byline is passe...........Superman fights for Truth, Justice and the American Dream.

 

owned.

 

Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

 

Why not look North. @smilepunch@

 

more ownage.

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Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

Where do I begin? Millar used a made-up history and facts, for one- and again, I must point out that the representation of the Soviets (especially Stalin) was intended to be how they would be portrayed if the comic were published by the USSR. To ignore this in favor of calling it 'leftist drivel' shows a lack of the understanding you claim to have. Just as American leaders are often portrayed in fiction as infallible patriots, a Communist leader in a comic published in a Communist country would have been see as humanitarian and perfect. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is an inaccurate portrayal of the man. But in being upset over that portrayal, you're ignoring that it is intended as a parody!

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history.

Yeah, our assumptions and propoganda has always been completely fair. Just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who were in internment camps during WWII, or the Blacks who died in the Civil Rights movement just so they didn't have to be treated like second-class citizens in the country of thier birth.

 

Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism?

Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.'

 

You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage.

You mean the Venona Transcripts that have had thier authenticity debated since the day they were released? You mean Hiss and the Rosenbergs, who have never had solid connections drawn, and likely never will, since they were executed by a paranoid government without fair trails? Now, that being said, I do believe they were in fact spies- this doesn't change the lack of solid evidence and abuse of the legal system that led to thier deaths.

 

FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

Hold on there, tiger. McCarthy was an abusive drunk with dreams of grandeur. His 'list', according to his good friends, was a shopping list. He gave false information to Congress and commited perjury. He ruined careers and lives of those who tried to debate his 'facts', just to remove thier opposition. This has all been proven- much of it by those working for him, his friends, and his relatives. Whether or not he was right is inconsequential- of course he was, at least some of the time. He accused too many people to not get a few right. Throw enough darts, you have to hit something. A similar concept is used by militaries when they engage in saturation bombing.

 

This is all aside from the fact that Communism is not, and never has been, illegal under the US Constitution. So while you're being patriotic and protecting the rights granted by democracy, you may want to keep that in mind.

 

Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that.

Um, yes, it's much more complex. Ask any sociologist, financial advisor, politicial analyst, and you'll be told that. International trading is higher than ever before, and getting higher every day. This necessitates better and more complex international relations. There isn't a single country in the world that can close off it's borders and be completely independant, as was possible several decades ago. Technology, economics, politics- all of these things have evolved and contribute to a stronger unity between countries and a more complex world.

 

There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact.

This comment baffles me. Saying we're the good guys, while admitting we make mistakes... that would intone that there are occasions in which we're not always good. Of course, in your view, this probably rests solely on the shoulders of the leftists and Commies, right?

 

Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament.

Which enemy? Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! Why doesn't that tell you that we need to be careful about what we say and do with the 'enemies' we have now. But hey, it's not like there's a world economy to worry about. It's not like there's a big picture that involves over 200 other countries, thier views, beliefs, and cultures.

 

And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?

 

Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

I'm not even touching this one.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

I believe Canada has already been used as an example. Also, a good portion of Europe is actually very leftist, according to the beliefs that you have used to describe it in this thread.

 

By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead.

See, this is the crux of your argument. You equate Socialism, Communism, and probably several other 'isms' you disapprove of with being 'leftism'. Not only that, you're including the stereotypes of them in your argument. You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose.

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hey wasn't the guy who came up with superman in the first place from @can@ anyways ?:P (I've just allways found that kinda funny :D )

 

not that ... that really has anything to do with anything :P

 

& its true though... things are not the way they use to be... & besides, superman goes where he is needed to go hes more of a world wide hero than anything else :P

I thought I read that one of Superman's creators was Jewish-Canadian & the other Jewish-American (can't remember which on was the @can@ ).

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hey wasn't the guy who came up with superman in the first place from @can@ anyways ?:P (I've just allways found that kinda funny :D )

 

not that ... that really has anything to do with anything :P

 

& its true though... things are not the way they use to be... & besides, superman goes where he is needed to go hes more of a world wide hero than anything else :P

I thought I read that one of Superman's creators was Jewish-Canadian & the other Jewish-American (can't remember which on was the @can@ ).

 

Joe Shuster--the artist portion of the team of Jerry Siegel and Shuster--was the co-creator of Superman. He's also the brother of Frank Shuster, who was part of the comedy team of Wayne and Shuster, a long running staple on Canada's CBC.

Superman was concieved on summer trips to the USA when Siegel and Shuster were in their late teens, iirc, somewhere in around the Detroit area.

 

Superman is part Canadian.

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Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

Where do I begin? Millar used a made-up history and facts, for one- and again, I must point out that the representation of the Soviets (especially Stalin) was intended to be how they would be portrayed if the comic were published by the USSR. To ignore this in favor of calling it 'leftist drivel' shows a lack of the understanding you claim to have. Just as American leaders are often portrayed in fiction as infallible patriots, a Communist leader in a comic published in a Communist country would have been see as humanitarian and perfect. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is an inaccurate portrayal of the man. But in being upset over that portrayal, you're ignoring that it is intended as a parody!

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history.

 

Yeah, our assumptions and propoganda has always been completely fair. Just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who were in internment camps during WWII, or the Blacks who died in the Civil Rights movement just so they didn't have to be treated like second-class citizens in the country of thier birth.

 

Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism?

Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.'

 

You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

 

You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage.

You mean the Venona Transcripts that have had thier authenticity debated since the day they were released? You mean Hiss and the Rosenbergs, who have never had solid connections drawn, and likely never will, since they were executed by a paranoid government without fair trails? Now, that being said, I do believe they were in fact spies- this doesn't change the lack of solid evidence and abuse of the legal system that led to thier deaths.

 

FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

Hold on there, tiger. McCarthy was an abusive drunk with dreams of grandeur. His 'list', according to his good friends, was a shopping list. He gave false information to Congress and commited perjury. He ruined careers and lives of those who tried to debate his 'facts', just to remove thier opposition. This has all been proven- much of it by those working for him, his friends, and his relatives. Whether or not he was right is inconsequential- of course he was, at least some of the time. He accused too many people to not get a few right. Throw enough darts, you have to hit something. A similar concept is used by militaries when they engage in saturation bombing.

 

This is all aside from the fact that Communism is not, and never has been, illegal under the US Constitution. So while you're being patriotic and protecting the rights granted by democracy, you may want to keep that in mind.

 

Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that.

Um, yes, it's much more complex. Ask any sociologist, financial advisor, politicial analyst, and you'll be told that. International trading is higher than ever before, and getting higher every day. This necessitates better and more complex international relations. There isn't a single country in the world that can close off it's borders and be completely independant, as was possible several decades ago. Technology, economics, politics- all of these things have evolved and contribute to a stronger unity between countries and a more complex world.

 

There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact.

This comment baffles me. Saying we're the good guys, while admitting we make mistakes... that would intone that there are occasions in which we're not always good. Of course, in your view, this probably rests solely on the shoulders of the leftists and Commies, right?

 

Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament.

Which enemy? Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! Why doesn't that tell you that we need to be careful about what we say and do with the 'enemies' we have now. But hey, it's not like there's a world economy to worry about. It's not like there's a big picture that involves over 200 other countries, thier views, beliefs, and cultures.

 

And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?

 

Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

I'm not even touching this one.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

I believe Canada has already been used as an example. Also, a good portion of Europe is actually very leftist, according to the beliefs that you have used to describe it in this thread.

 

By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead.

See, this is the crux of your argument. You equate Socialism, Communism, and probably several other 'isms' you disapprove of with being 'leftism'. Not only that, you're including the stereotypes of them in your argument. You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose.

 

This entire post is, as they say in the military, a "target-rich environment". As I dissect this nonsense, I'll try to be brief. It will hurt, however. Sorry...truth is like that.

 

First of all, there's no indication, either from DC or Millar, that the story "Red Son" was, as you erroneously claim, intended to portray Soviet agit-prop on a Soviet Superman. Nor was it intended to be merely a Soviet version of a Superman comic, or a "parody". If that was the case, then it would be indistuinguishable from the American "propaganda" on Superman that you claim proliferated in the 40's, it would simply be done in Russian. In addition, since the Soviet Union did not allow freedom of the press or freedom of expression (you did know that, didn't you??), then there would not have been any criticism of the regime and the Soviet Superman in the story (as there most certianly was; remember the Batman character??). To restate my original assertion, it was leftist drivel from a leftist (by his own admission) writer. It completely understated the affect that an indoctrination into the Soviet (Totalitarian) system would have had on the character. He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond.

 

Regarding the internment of the Japanese during WWII at Manzanar and other places, and the oppression of African-Americans, no one argues that this was wrong. However, its entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Its an attempt to deflect the debate to another issue. Sorry...ain't workin'. But now that you bring it up...Japanese Americans weren't executed, or forced into work camps. The Governement recently issued a formal apology for this action, and compensated the victims (and need I remind you that the internment of Japanese Americans was done by a Democrat administration? This will be a recurring theme...). Please cite for me the compensation that the Russian government has ever paid to victims of Stalin. Please cite for me Stalin's regret, and apologies. I won't hold my breath.

 

 

"Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.' "

 

This is too rich for worlds. Only a fool would be against a world dominated by democracy. Thanks for the example. And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath.

 

"You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?"

 

You are obviously ignorant of both history and politics. The American Left has been attempting to pass themselves off as innocent little angels or misguided "students" for years. To the contrary, an activist, dedicated, pro-communist fifth column had been in operation in the UASA since the 1920's. To assert that they had no connection to the Soviet Gov't is pure idiocy. Siviet archives have confirmed theiur existence, and their usefulness to the Soviet Gov't. Coincidentally, they made great in-roads on campuses in the 1920's, and men like ALger Hiss were prime examples until their shenanigans was exposed by men like Whitaker Chambers and Joseph McCarthy. Since you obviously need an education on this issue, let's begin with a recitation of just how extensive the pro-commmunist network was in the USA up to the 1950's:

 

Alger Hiss: Assistant Sec. of State under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Dexter White: Asst. Sec. of Treasury under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

Whie secured high-level gov't positions at the treasury department for 11 other Soviet agent ALL identified in VERONA.

 

Lauchlin Currie: Admin. Assistant to President Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Duncan Lee: Chief of Staff to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS was the pre-cursor organization to the CIA - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Hopkins: Specal Advisor to Presdient Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Henry Wallace: Vice-President of the United States (under Roosevelt...seeing a pattern). - Known Communist sympathizer, considered Winstin Churchill the USA's "main enemey" and wanted to give Stalin complete control of Eastern Europe

 

Owen Lattimore: State Department analyst - Soviet spy, identified in VERONA

 

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Soviet spys; identified in VERONA. Provided the Soviets with key information on the construction of the atomic bomb. In 1997, former KGB Colonel Alexander Feklisov identified himself publicly as Julius' handler, and openly praised their contributions to the USSR's acquisition of the bomb, calling the Rosenbergs "Heroes". He also said that the Rosenberg's network was "one of the best producing groups of agents in Soviet tecvhnological espionage." (They were guity as hell, and they got what they deserved. Good riddance!)

 

To simply assert that the authenticity oif the VERONA Transcripts has been "debated" is laughable! By whom? Former Communists and Left-Wing sympathizers? That's like saying "OJ Simpson didn't kill Nicole, and I know this because OJ told me he's innocent." Nice try. I could go on and on, but you're probably feeling embarrased. So let's go to your next silly statement regarding Joe McCarthy.

 

Joe McCarthy was a courageous man who called-out the Left, and they (and their willing accomplices in Hollywood and the media) have hated him for it ever since. McCarthy was very concerned that that State Department was crawling with Soviet spies. As I've already demonstrated, it was, and he was right. As a challenge, please cite thje name of one (1) person whose life was ruined by Joseph McCarthy. Just one. Please. Again, I won't hoild my breath. But I will say that calling McCarthy a drunk is duly noted. Let's not debate the merits of what he did, let's call him names!!! And I thought you guys were supposed to be so compassionate?!?!? (Incidentally, if McCarthy was such a bad-guy, why did Bobby Kennedy ask him to be God-Father to his first child? Why did John F. Kennedy refer to him as a "great Patriot"?)

 

No, Communism is not "illegal" in the USA. But I find it interesting that the same Communists who always hide behind the blanket of protection the Constitution provides will destroy that document once they're in power. I suppose the irony is lost on you...

 

"Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! "

 

Yes, but to get them to be our bosom-buddies, first we had to obliterate them on the battlefield and force them to respect their betters (or, in the case of the Russians, utterly destroy their economy. God bless Ronald Reagan!) This is a world that is dominated by the aggressive use of force. Some will use it for tyranny, other for democracy. I guess your Sociology professors didn't clue you in on that one, huh??

 

"And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?"

 

Actually, I glad you asked this one. I've been hinting at it in my lengthy response. Let's have a brief history lesson. The Democrat party is soft on our enemies and loses wars (FDR aside, and if we'd been fighting Communists in WWII, it might have been different). Democrats refused to ackowledge the threat of Communism, so Republicans had to clean upi the mess. Democrats (Carter, Clinton) didn't acknowledge the threat of Radical Islam, so Rep[ublicans will have to clean up the mess. History provides numerous examples. Democrats (America's left) lost China, fought to a needless stalmate in North Korea (MacArthur would've won that one), allowed the Soviets to expand in Asia and Africa in the 60's and 70's, and if Carter had been re-elected in 1980, the Soviet Union would still be around. Clinton's cowardice in Somalia in 1993 led directly to 9/11 (just ask Bin Laden, he said so himself.)

 

Yes, a good portion of Europe is Socialist. And their economies (and Canada) would absolutely collapse without their trade with the USA. France has double-digit unemployment, thanks to socalism. Germany just threw out their Socialist government. Socialism doesn't work. The only success these countries enjoy is when they dabble with free-market economics. History has proved it. You might want to get with the program.

 

"You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose."

 

Actually, I'm not confusing anything. Leftism = socialism. A socialist is only a communist who doesn't have the guts to admit what he really thinks. That's why the Democrats have such a hard time explaining their Party "platform"; it's all lies and obfuscation. If they actually told people about everything they really wanted to do, they'd be thrown out of office.

 

Naziism was the enemy.

 

Communism was the enemy.

 

Islamo-fascism IS the enemy.

 

And by the way, I am doing it on purpose.

 

SUPERMAN: TRTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY!

 

#US1#

 

 

 

 

 

Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

Where do I begin? Millar used a made-up history and facts, for one- and again, I must point out that the representation of the Soviets (especially Stalin) was intended to be how they would be portrayed if the comic were published by the USSR. To ignore this in favor of calling it 'leftist drivel' shows a lack of the understanding you claim to have. Just as American leaders are often portrayed in fiction as infallible patriots, a Communist leader in a comic published in a Communist country would have been see as humanitarian and perfect. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is an inaccurate portrayal of the man. But in being upset over that portrayal, you're ignoring that it is intended as a parody!

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history.

 

Yeah, our assumptions and propoganda has always been completely fair. Just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who were in internment camps during WWII, or the Blacks who died in the Civil Rights movement just so they didn't have to be treated like second-class citizens in the country of thier birth.

 

Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism?

Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.'

 

You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

 

You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage.

You mean the Venona Transcripts that have had thier authenticity debated since the day they were released? You mean Hiss and the Rosenbergs, who have never had solid connections drawn, and likely never will, since they were executed by a paranoid government without fair trails? Now, that being said, I do believe they were in fact spies- this doesn't change the lack of solid evidence and abuse of the legal system that led to thier deaths.

 

FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

Hold on there, tiger. McCarthy was an abusive drunk with dreams of grandeur. His 'list', according to his good friends, was a shopping list. He gave false information to Congress and commited perjury. He ruined careers and lives of those who tried to debate his 'facts', just to remove thier opposition. This has all been proven- much of it by those working for him, his friends, and his relatives. Whether or not he was right is inconsequential- of course he was, at least some of the time. He accused too many people to not get a few right. Throw enough darts, you have to hit something. A similar concept is used by militaries when they engage in saturation bombing.

 

This is all aside from the fact that Communism is not, and never has been, illegal under the US Constitution. So while you're being patriotic and protecting the rights granted by democracy, you may want to keep that in mind.

 

Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that.

Um, yes, it's much more complex. Ask any sociologist, financial advisor, politicial analyst, and you'll be told that. International trading is higher than ever before, and getting higher every day. This necessitates better and more complex international relations. There isn't a single country in the world that can close off it's borders and be completely independant, as was possible several decades ago. Technology, economics, politics- all of these things have evolved and contribute to a stronger unity between countries and a more complex world.

 

There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact.

This comment baffles me. Saying we're the good guys, while admitting we make mistakes... that would intone that there are occasions in which we're not always good. Of course, in your view, this probably rests solely on the shoulders of the leftists and Commies, right?

 

Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament.

Which enemy? Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! Why doesn't that tell you that we need to be careful about what we say and do with the 'enemies' we have now. But hey, it's not like there's a world economy to worry about. It's not like there's a big picture that involves over 200 other countries, thier views, beliefs, and cultures.

 

And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?

 

Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

I'm not even touching this one.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

I believe Canada has already been used as an example. Also, a good portion of Europe is actually very leftist, according to the beliefs that you have used to describe it in this thread.

 

By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead.

See, this is the crux of your argument. You equate Socialism, Communism, and probably several other 'isms' you disapprove of with being 'leftism'. Not only that, you're including the stereotypes of them in your argument. You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose.

 

This entire post is, as they say in the military, a "target-rich environment". As I dissect this nonsense, I'll try to be brief. It will hurt, however. Sorry...truth is like that.

 

First of all, there's no indication, either from DC or Millar, that the story "Red Son" was, as you erroneously claim, intended to portray Soviet agit-prop on a Soviet Superman. Nor was it intended to be merely a Soviet version of a Superman comic, or a "parody". If that was the case, then it would be indistuinguishable from the American "propaganda" on Superman that you claim proliferated in the 40's, it would simply be done in Russian. In addition, since the Soviet Union did not allow freedom of the press or freedom of expression (you did know that, didn't you??), then there would not have been any criticism of the regime and the Soviet Superman in the story (as there most certianly was; remember the Batman character??). To restate my original assertion, it was leftist drivel from a leftist (by his own admission) writer. It completely understated the affect that an indoctrination into the Soviet (Totalitarian) system would have had on the character. He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond.

 

Regarding the internment of the Japanese during WWII at Manzanar and other places, and the oppression of African-Americans, no one argues that this was wrong. However, its entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Its an attempt to deflect the debate to another issue. Sorry...ain't workin'. But now that you bring it up...Japanese Americans weren't executed, or forced into work camps. The Governement recently issued a formal apology for this action, and compensated the victims (and need I remind you that the internment of Japanese Americans was done by a Democrat administration? This will be a recurring theme...). Please cite for me the compensation that the Russian government has ever paid to victims of Stalin. Please cite for me Stalin's regret, and apologies. I won't hold my breath.

 

 

"Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.' "

 

This is too rich for worlds. Only a fool would be against a world dominated by democracy. Thanks for the example. And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath.

 

"You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?"

 

You are obviously ignorant of both history and politics. The American Left has been attempting to pass themselves off as innocent little angels or misguided "students" for years. To the contrary, an activist, dedicated, pro-communist fifth column had been in operation in the UASA since the 1920's. To assert that they had no connection to the Soviet Gov't is pure idiocy. Siviet archives have confirmed theiur existence, and their usefulness to the Soviet Gov't. Coincidentally, they made great in-roads on campuses in the 1920's, and men like ALger Hiss were prime examples until their shenanigans was exposed by men like Whitaker Chambers and Joseph McCarthy. Since you obviously need an education on this issue, let's begin with a recitation of just how extensive the pro-commmunist network was in the USA up to the 1950's:

 

Alger Hiss: Assistant Sec. of State under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Dexter White: Asst. Sec. of Treasury under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

Whie secured high-level gov't positions at the treasury department for 11 other Soviet agent ALL identified in VERONA.

 

Lauchlin Currie: Admin. Assistant to President Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Duncan Lee: Chief of Staff to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS was the pre-cursor organization to the CIA - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Hopkins: Specal Advisor to Presdient Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Henry Wallace: Vice-President of the United States (under Roosevelt...seeing a pattern). - Known Communist sympathizer, considered Winstin Churchill the USA's "main enemey" and wanted to give Stalin complete control of Eastern Europe

 

Owen Lattimore: State Department analyst - Soviet spy, identified in VERONA

 

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Soviet spys; identified in VERONA. Provided the Soviets with key information on the construction of the atomic bomb. In 1997, former KGB Colonel Alexander Feklisov identified himself publicly as Julius' handler, and openly praised their contributions to the USSR's acquisition of the bomb, calling the Rosenbergs "Heroes". He also said that the Rosenberg's network was "one of the best producing groups of agents in Soviet tecvhnological espionage." (They were guity as hell, and they got what they deserved. Good riddance!)

 

To simply assert that the authenticity oif the VERONA Transcripts has been "debated" is laughable! By whom? Former Communists and Left-Wing sympathizers? That's like saying "OJ Simpson didn't kill Nicole, and I know this because OJ told me he's innocent." Nice try. I could go on and on, but you're probably feeling embarrased. So let's go to your next silly statement regarding Joe McCarthy.

 

Joe McCarthy was a courageous man who called-out the Left, and they (and their willing accomplices in Hollywood and the media) have hated him for it ever since. McCarthy was very concerned that that State Department was crawling with Soviet spies. As I've already demonstrated, it was, and he was right. As a challenge, please cite thje name of one (1) person whose life was ruined by Joseph McCarthy. Just one. Please. Again, I won't hoild my breath. But I will say that calling McCarthy a drunk is duly noted. Let's not debate the merits of what he did, let's call him names!!! And I thought you guys were supposed to be so compassionate?!?!? (Incidentally, if McCarthy was such a bad-guy, why did Bobby Kennedy ask him to be God-Father to his first child? Why did John F. Kennedy refer to him as a "great Patriot"?)

 

No, Communism is not "illegal" in the USA. But I find it interesting that the same Communists who always hide behind the blanket of protection the Constitution provides will destroy that document once they're in power. I suppose the irony is lost on you...

 

"Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! "

 

Yes, but to get them to be our bosom-buddies, first we had to obliterate them on the battlefield and force them to respect their betters (or, in the case of the Russians, utterly destroy their economy. God bless Ronald Reagan!) This is a world that is dominated by the aggressive use of force. Some will use it for tyranny, other for democracy. I guess your Sociology professors didn't clue you in on that one, huh??

 

"And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?"

 

Actually, I glad you asked this one. I've been hinting at it in my lengthy response. Let's have a brief history lesson. The Democrat party is soft on our enemies and loses wars (FDR aside, and if we'd been fighting Communists in WWII, it might have been different). Democrats refused to ackowledge the threat of Communism, so Republicans had to clean upi the mess. Democrats (Carter, Clinton) didn't acknowledge the threat of Radical Islam, so Rep[ublicans will have to clean up the mess. History provides numerous examples. Democrats (America's left) lost China, fought to a needless stalmate in North Korea (MacArthur would've won that one), allowed the Soviets to expand in Asia and Africa in the 60's and 70's, and if Carter had been re-elected in 1980, the Soviet Union would still be around. Clinton's cowardice in Somalia in 1993 led directly to 9/11 (just ask Bin Laden, he said so himself.)

 

Yes, a good portion of Europe is Socialist. And their economies (and Canada) would absolutely collapse without their trade with the USA. France has double-digit unemployment, thanks to socalism. Germany just threw out their Socialist government. Socialism doesn't work. The only success these countries enjoy is when they dabble with free-market economics. History has proved it. You might want to get with the program.

 

"You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose."

 

Actually, I'm not confusing anything. Leftism = socialism. A socialist is only a communist who doesn't have the guts to admit what he really thinks. That's why the Democrats have such a hard time explaining their Party "platform"; it's all lies and obfuscation. If they actually told people about everything they really wanted to do, they'd be thrown out of office.

 

Naziism was the enemy.

 

Communism was the enemy.

 

Islamo-fascism IS the enemy.

 

And by the way, I am doing it on purpose.

 

SUPERMAN: TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY!

 

#US1#

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Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

Where do I begin? Millar used a made-up history and facts, for one- and again, I must point out that the representation of the Soviets (especially Stalin) was intended to be how they would be portrayed if the comic were published by the USSR. To ignore this in favor of calling it 'leftist drivel' shows a lack of the understanding you claim to have. Just as American leaders are often portrayed in fiction as infallible patriots, a Communist leader in a comic published in a Communist country would have been see as humanitarian and perfect. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is an inaccurate portrayal of the man. But in being upset over that portrayal, you're ignoring that it is intended as a parody!

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history.

 

Yeah, our assumptions and propoganda has always been completely fair. Just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who were in internment camps during WWII, or the Blacks who died in the Civil Rights movement just so they didn't have to be treated like second-class citizens in the country of thier birth.

 

Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism?

Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.'

 

You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

 

You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage.

You mean the Venona Transcripts that have had thier authenticity debated since the day they were released? You mean Hiss and the Rosenbergs, who have never had solid connections drawn, and likely never will, since they were executed by a paranoid government without fair trails? Now, that being said, I do believe they were in fact spies- this doesn't change the lack of solid evidence and abuse of the legal system that led to thier deaths.

 

FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

Hold on there, tiger. McCarthy was an abusive drunk with dreams of grandeur. His 'list', according to his good friends, was a shopping list. He gave false information to Congress and commited perjury. He ruined careers and lives of those who tried to debate his 'facts', just to remove thier opposition. This has all been proven- much of it by those working for him, his friends, and his relatives. Whether or not he was right is inconsequential- of course he was, at least some of the time. He accused too many people to not get a few right. Throw enough darts, you have to hit something. A similar concept is used by militaries when they engage in saturation bombing.

 

This is all aside from the fact that Communism is not, and never has been, illegal under the US Constitution. So while you're being patriotic and protecting the rights granted by democracy, you may want to keep that in mind.

 

Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that.

Um, yes, it's much more complex. Ask any sociologist, financial advisor, politicial analyst, and you'll be told that. International trading is higher than ever before, and getting higher every day. This necessitates better and more complex international relations. There isn't a single country in the world that can close off it's borders and be completely independant, as was possible several decades ago. Technology, economics, politics- all of these things have evolved and contribute to a stronger unity between countries and a more complex world.

 

There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact.

This comment baffles me. Saying we're the good guys, while admitting we make mistakes... that would intone that there are occasions in which we're not always good. Of course, in your view, this probably rests solely on the shoulders of the leftists and Commies, right?

 

Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament.

Which enemy? Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! Why doesn't that tell you that we need to be careful about what we say and do with the 'enemies' we have now. But hey, it's not like there's a world economy to worry about. It's not like there's a big picture that involves over 200 other countries, thier views, beliefs, and cultures.

 

And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?

 

Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

I'm not even touching this one.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

I believe Canada has already been used as an example. Also, a good portion of Europe is actually very leftist, according to the beliefs that you have used to describe it in this thread.

 

By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead.

See, this is the crux of your argument. You equate Socialism, Communism, and probably several other 'isms' you disapprove of with being 'leftism'. Not only that, you're including the stereotypes of them in your argument. You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose.

 

This entire post is, as they say in the military, a "target-rich environment". As I dissect this nonsense, I'll try to be brief. It will hurt, however. Sorry...truth is like that.

 

First of all, there's no indication, either from DC or Millar, that the story "Red Son" was, as you erroneously claim, intended to portray Soviet agit-prop on a Soviet Superman. Nor was it intended to be merely a Soviet version of a Superman comic, or a "parody". If that was the case, then it would be indistuinguishable from the American "propaganda" on Superman that you claim proliferated in the 40's, it would simply be done in Russian. In addition, since the Soviet Union did not allow freedom of the press or freedom of expression (you did know that, didn't you??), then there would not have been any criticism of the regime and the Soviet Superman in the story (as there most certianly was; remember the Batman character??). To restate my original assertion, it was leftist drivel from a leftist (by his own admission) writer. It completely understated the affect that an indoctrination into the Soviet (Totalitarian) system would have had on the character. He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond.

 

Regarding the internment of the Japanese during WWII at Manzanar and other places, and the oppression of African-Americans, no one argues that this was wrong. However, its entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Its an attempt to deflect the debate to another issue. Sorry...ain't workin'. But now that you bring it up...Japanese Americans weren't executed, or forced into work camps. The Governement recently issued a formal apology for this action, and compensated the victims (and need I remind you that the internment of Japanese Americans was done by a Democrat administration? This will be a recurring theme...). Please cite for me the compensation that the Russian government has ever paid to victims of Stalin. Please cite for me Stalin's regret, and apologies. I won't hold my breath.

 

 

"Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.' "

 

This is too rich for worlds. Only a fool would be against a world dominated by democracy. Thanks for the example. And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath.

 

"You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?"

 

You are obviously ignorant of both history and politics. The American Left has been attempting to pass themselves off as innocent little angels or misguided "students" for years. To the contrary, an activist, dedicated, pro-communist fifth column had been in operation in the UASA since the 1920's. To assert that they had no connection to the Soviet Gov't is pure idiocy. Siviet archives have confirmed theiur existence, and their usefulness to the Soviet Gov't. Coincidentally, they made great in-roads on campuses in the 1920's, and men like ALger Hiss were prime examples until their shenanigans was exposed by men like Whitaker Chambers and Joseph McCarthy. Since you obviously need an education on this issue, let's begin with a recitation of just how extensive the pro-commmunist network was in the USA up to the 1950's:

 

Alger Hiss: Assistant Sec. of State under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Dexter White: Asst. Sec. of Treasury under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

Whie secured high-level gov't positions at the treasury department for 11 other Soviet agent ALL identified in VERONA.

 

Lauchlin Currie: Admin. Assistant to President Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Duncan Lee: Chief of Staff to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS was the pre-cursor organization to the CIA - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Hopkins: Specal Advisor to Presdient Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Henry Wallace: Vice-President of the United States (under Roosevelt...seeing a pattern). - Known Communist sympathizer, considered Winstin Churchill the USA's "main enemey" and wanted to give Stalin complete control of Eastern Europe

 

Owen Lattimore: State Department analyst - Soviet spy, identified in VERONA

 

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Soviet spys; identified in VERONA. Provided the Soviets with key information on the construction of the atomic bomb. In 1997, former KGB Colonel Alexander Feklisov identified himself publicly as Julius' handler, and openly praised their contributions to the USSR's acquisition of the bomb, calling the Rosenbergs "Heroes". He also said that the Rosenberg's network was "one of the best producing groups of agents in Soviet tecvhnological espionage." (They were guity as hell, and they got what they deserved. Good riddance!)

 

To simply assert that the authenticity oif the VERONA Transcripts has been "debated" is laughable! By whom? Former Communists and Left-Wing sympathizers? That's like saying "OJ Simpson didn't kill Nicole, and I know this because OJ told me he's innocent." Nice try. I could go on and on, but you're probably feeling embarrased. So let's go to your next silly statement regarding Joe McCarthy.

 

Joe McCarthy was a courageous man who called-out the Left, and they (and their willing accomplices in Hollywood and the media) have hated him for it ever since. McCarthy was very concerned that that State Department was crawling with Soviet spies. As I've already demonstrated, it was, and he was right. As a challenge, please cite thje name of one (1) person whose life was ruined by Joseph McCarthy. Just one. Please. Again, I won't hoild my breath. But I will say that calling McCarthy a drunk is duly noted. Let's not debate the merits of what he did, let's call him names!!! And I thought you guys were supposed to be so compassionate?!?!? (Incidentally, if McCarthy was such a bad-guy, why did Bobby Kennedy ask him to be God-Father to his first child? Why did John F. Kennedy refer to him as a "great Patriot"?)

 

No, Communism is not "illegal" in the USA. But I find it interesting that the same Communists who always hide behind the blanket of protection the Constitution provides will destroy that document once they're in power. I suppose the irony is lost on you...

 

"Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! "

 

Yes, but to get them to be our bosom-buddies, first we had to obliterate them on the battlefield and force them to respect their betters (or, in the case of the Russians, utterly destroy their economy. God bless Ronald Reagan!) This is a world that is dominated by the aggressive use of force. Some will use it for tyranny, other for democracy. I guess your Sociology professors didn't clue you in on that one, huh??

 

"And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?"

 

Actually, I glad you asked this one. I've been hinting at it in my lengthy response. Let's have a brief history lesson. The Democrat party is soft on our enemies and loses wars (FDR aside, and if we'd been fighting Communists in WWII, it might have been different). Democrats refused to ackowledge the threat of Communism, so Republicans had to clean upi the mess. Democrats (Carter, Clinton) didn't acknowledge the threat of Radical Islam, so Rep[ublicans will have to clean up the mess. History provides numerous examples. Democrats (America's left) lost China, fought to a needless stalmate in North Korea (MacArthur would've won that one), allowed the Soviets to expand in Asia and Africa in the 60's and 70's, and if Carter had been re-elected in 1980, the Soviet Union would still be around. Clinton's cowardice in Somalia in 1993 led directly to 9/11 (just ask Bin Laden, he said so himself.)

 

Yes, a good portion of Europe is Socialist. And their economies (and Canada) would absolutely collapse without their trade with the USA. France has double-digit unemployment, thanks to socalism. Germany just threw out their Socialist government. Socialism doesn't work. The only success these countries enjoy is when they dabble with free-market economics. History has proved it. You might want to get with the program.

 

"You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose."

 

Actually, I'm not confusing anything. Leftism = socialism. A socialist is only a communist who doesn't have the guts to admit what he really thinks. That's why the Democrats have such a hard time explaining their Party "platform"; it's all lies and obfuscation. If they actually told people about everything they really wanted to do, they'd be thrown out of office.

 

Naziism was the enemy.

 

Communism was the enemy.

 

Islamo-fascism IS the enemy.

 

And by the way, I am doing it on purpose.

 

SUPERMAN: TRTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY!

 

#US1#

 

 

 

 

 

Where do I begin? First of all, I understand "Red-Son" completely. It was leftist drivel, from start to finish. I understood it completely, and I still assert that it was factually incorrect and historically innaccurate. But let's begin with your comments. The Soviet Union WAS a nation grounded in tyranny. It was not a free society. You are aware that Joseph Stalin murdered over 30 million of his own citizens, correct? Just checking. Because Millar's potrayal of Stalin in "Red Son" was nowhere near reality. A Superman who served Stalin, and was devoted to Communist ideals (ie, suppression of religion, suppression of political freedom, suppression of a free press, etc...) would not have been the Superman potrayed in "Red Son". He would have been a monster, and the US would have been right to stop him.

Where do I begin? Millar used a made-up history and facts, for one- and again, I must point out that the representation of the Soviets (especially Stalin) was intended to be how they would be portrayed if the comic were published by the USSR. To ignore this in favor of calling it 'leftist drivel' shows a lack of the understanding you claim to have. Just as American leaders are often portrayed in fiction as infallible patriots, a Communist leader in a comic published in a Communist country would have been see as humanitarian and perfect. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is an inaccurate portrayal of the man. But in being upset over that portrayal, you're ignoring that it is intended as a parody!

 

Based on your comments, I assume you believe that the Soviet Union was just another country, and that we (the USA) were wrong to assume that they were a threat, and that our "propaganda" was unfair. This is absolutely ridiculous, and disproven by history.

 

Yeah, our assumptions and propoganda has always been completely fair. Just ask any of the Japanese-Americans who were in internment camps during WWII, or the Blacks who died in the Civil Rights movement just so they didn't have to be treated like second-class citizens in the country of thier birth.

 

Again, I ask you: You are aware, I would presume, that Soviet philosophy called for a world dominated by Marxism?

Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.'

 

You are also (I would presume) that the Soviets had an active fifth column working in the USA since the 1920's, aren't you? That American citizens, including organizations like the Communist Party USA were willful participants in espionage and treason against their own nation, correct?

 

You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?

 

This wasn't propoaganda. This was fact. It's been proven by the Venona Transcripts. You have heard of the "Venona Transcripts", correct? These are KGB documents that the Russian government released at the end of the Cold War. They prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that people like Alger Hiss and the Rosenbergs were guilty of espionage.

You mean the Venona Transcripts that have had thier authenticity debated since the day they were released? You mean Hiss and the Rosenbergs, who have never had solid connections drawn, and likely never will, since they were executed by a paranoid government without fair trails? Now, that being said, I do believe they were in fact spies- this doesn't change the lack of solid evidence and abuse of the legal system that led to thier deaths.

 

FYI, the Venona Transcripts also prove that Senator Joe McCarthy, despite the Left's ceaseless attempts to portray him as a lunatic, was absolutely correct.

Hold on there, tiger. McCarthy was an abusive drunk with dreams of grandeur. His 'list', according to his good friends, was a shopping list. He gave false information to Congress and commited perjury. He ruined careers and lives of those who tried to debate his 'facts', just to remove thier opposition. This has all been proven- much of it by those working for him, his friends, and his relatives. Whether or not he was right is inconsequential- of course he was, at least some of the time. He accused too many people to not get a few right. Throw enough darts, you have to hit something. A similar concept is used by militaries when they engage in saturation bombing.

 

This is all aside from the fact that Communism is not, and never has been, illegal under the US Constitution. So while you're being patriotic and protecting the rights granted by democracy, you may want to keep that in mind.

 

Sorry, the world is not "more complex" than it used to be. Only a fool believes that.

Um, yes, it's much more complex. Ask any sociologist, financial advisor, politicial analyst, and you'll be told that. International trading is higher than ever before, and getting higher every day. This necessitates better and more complex international relations. There isn't a single country in the world that can close off it's borders and be completely independant, as was possible several decades ago. Technology, economics, politics- all of these things have evolved and contribute to a stronger unity between countries and a more complex world.

 

There are good guys, and there are bad guys. We (the USA) are the good guys. This doesn't mean that we're angels, but its an unavoidable fact.

This comment baffles me. Saying we're the good guys, while admitting we make mistakes... that would intone that there are occasions in which we're not always good. Of course, in your view, this probably rests solely on the shoulders of the leftists and Commies, right?

 

Personally, I fear a world where people such as yourself, who apparently view the harsh, ugly truths about our enemies as "stereotypes", would ever again be in power in this nation. The bubble-headed PC views you espouse are precisely what led us into our present predicament.

Which enemy? Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! Why doesn't that tell you that we need to be careful about what we say and do with the 'enemies' we have now. But hey, it's not like there's a world economy to worry about. It's not like there's a big picture that involves over 200 other countries, thier views, beliefs, and cultures.

 

And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?

 

Thank God we have leadership in Washington who understand that.

I'm not even touching this one.

 

Finally, to assert that the leftist view-point is the "modern, logical view-point" is laughable! Please point to a free, economically successful leftist nation as an example. I won't hold my breath.

I believe Canada has already been used as an example. Also, a good portion of Europe is actually very leftist, according to the beliefs that you have used to describe it in this thread.

 

By the way, leftism has plenty of blood on its hands. Last count, the victims of Socialism and Communism in the 20th century was >100 million dead.

See, this is the crux of your argument. You equate Socialism, Communism, and probably several other 'isms' you disapprove of with being 'leftism'. Not only that, you're including the stereotypes of them in your argument. You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose.

 

This entire post is, as they say in the military, a "target-rich environment". As I dissect this nonsense, I'll try to be brief. It will hurt, however. Sorry...truth is like that.

 

First of all, there's no indication, either from DC or Millar, that the story "Red Son" was, as you erroneously claim, intended to portray Soviet agit-prop on a Soviet Superman. Nor was it intended to be merely a Soviet version of a Superman comic, or a "parody". If that was the case, then it would be indistuinguishable from the American "propaganda" on Superman that you claim proliferated in the 40's, it would simply be done in Russian. In addition, since the Soviet Union did not allow freedom of the press or freedom of expression (you did know that, didn't you??), then there would not have been any criticism of the regime and the Soviet Superman in the story (as there most certianly was; remember the Batman character??). To restate my original assertion, it was leftist drivel from a leftist (by his own admission) writer. It completely understated the affect that an indoctrination into the Soviet (Totalitarian) system would have had on the character. He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond.

 

Regarding the internment of the Japanese during WWII at Manzanar and other places, and the oppression of African-Americans, no one argues that this was wrong. However, its entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Its an attempt to deflect the debate to another issue. Sorry...ain't workin'. But now that you bring it up...Japanese Americans weren't executed, or forced into work camps. The Governement recently issued a formal apology for this action, and compensated the victims (and need I remind you that the internment of Japanese Americans was done by a Democrat administration? This will be a recurring theme...). Please cite for me the compensation that the Russian government has ever paid to victims of Stalin. Please cite for me Stalin's regret, and apologies. I won't hold my breath.

 

 

"Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.' "

 

This is too rich for worlds. Only a fool would be against a world dominated by democracy. Thanks for the example. And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath.

 

"You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?"

 

You are obviously ignorant of both history and politics. The American Left has been attempting to pass themselves off as innocent little angels or misguided "students" for years. To the contrary, an activist, dedicated, pro-communist fifth column had been in operation in the UASA since the 1920's. To assert that they had no connection to the Soviet Gov't is pure idiocy. Siviet archives have confirmed theiur existence, and their usefulness to the Soviet Gov't. Coincidentally, they made great in-roads on campuses in the 1920's, and men like ALger Hiss were prime examples until their shenanigans was exposed by men like Whitaker Chambers and Joseph McCarthy. Since you obviously need an education on this issue, let's begin with a recitation of just how extensive the pro-commmunist network was in the USA up to the 1950's:

 

Alger Hiss: Assistant Sec. of State under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Dexter White: Asst. Sec. of Treasury under Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

Whie secured high-level gov't positions at the treasury department for 11 other Soviet agent ALL identified in VERONA.

 

Lauchlin Currie: Admin. Assistant to President Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Duncan Lee: Chief of Staff to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The OSS was the pre-cursor organization to the CIA - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Harry Hopkins: Specal Advisor to Presdient Roosevelt - Soviet spy; identified in VERONA

 

Henry Wallace: Vice-President of the United States (under Roosevelt...seeing a pattern). - Known Communist sympathizer, considered Winstin Churchill the USA's "main enemey" and wanted to give Stalin complete control of Eastern Europe

 

Owen Lattimore: State Department analyst - Soviet spy, identified in VERONA

 

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg: Soviet spys; identified in VERONA. Provided the Soviets with key information on the construction of the atomic bomb. In 1997, former KGB Colonel Alexander Feklisov identified himself publicly as Julius' handler, and openly praised their contributions to the USSR's acquisition of the bomb, calling the Rosenbergs "Heroes". He also said that the Rosenberg's network was "one of the best producing groups of agents in Soviet tecvhnological espionage." (They were guity as hell, and they got what they deserved. Good riddance!)

 

To simply assert that the authenticity oif the VERONA Transcripts has been "debated" is laughable! By whom? Former Communists and Left-Wing sympathizers? That's like saying "OJ Simpson didn't kill Nicole, and I know this because OJ told me he's innocent." Nice try. I could go on and on, but you're probably feeling embarrased. So let's go to your next silly statement regarding Joe McCarthy.

 

Joe McCarthy was a courageous man who called-out the Left, and they (and their willing accomplices in Hollywood and the media) have hated him for it ever since. McCarthy was very concerned that that State Department was crawling with Soviet spies. As I've already demonstrated, it was, and he was right. As a challenge, please cite thje name of one (1) person whose life was ruined by Joseph McCarthy. Just one. Please. Again, I won't hoild my breath. But I will say that calling McCarthy a drunk is duly noted. Let's not debate the merits of what he did, let's call him names!!! And I thought you guys were supposed to be so compassionate?!?!? (Incidentally, if McCarthy was such a bad-guy, why did Bobby Kennedy ask him to be God-Father to his first child? Why did John F. Kennedy refer to him as a "great Patriot"?)

 

No, Communism is not "illegal" in the USA. But I find it interesting that the same Communists who always hide behind the blanket of protection the Constitution provides will destroy that document once they're in power. I suppose the irony is lost on you...

 

"Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! "

 

Yes, but to get them to be our bosom-buddies, first we had to obliterate them on the battlefield and force them to respect their betters (or, in the case of the Russians, utterly destroy their economy. God bless Ronald Reagan!) This is a world that is dominated by the aggressive use of force. Some will use it for tyranny, other for democracy. I guess your Sociology professors didn't clue you in on that one, huh??

 

"And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?"

 

Actually, I glad you asked this one. I've been hinting at it in my lengthy response. Let's have a brief history lesson. The Democrat party is soft on our enemies and loses wars (FDR aside, and if we'd been fighting Communists in WWII, it might have been different). Democrats refused to ackowledge the threat of Communism, so Republicans had to clean upi the mess. Democrats (Carter, Clinton) didn't acknowledge the threat of Radical Islam, so Rep[ublicans will have to clean up the mess. History provides numerous examples. Democrats (America's left) lost China, fought to a needless stalmate in North Korea (MacArthur would've won that one), allowed the Soviets to expand in Asia and Africa in the 60's and 70's, and if Carter had been re-elected in 1980, the Soviet Union would still be around. Clinton's cowardice in Somalia in 1993 led directly to 9/11 (just ask Bin Laden, he said so himself.)

 

Yes, a good portion of Europe is Socialist. And their economies (and Canada) would absolutely collapse without their trade with the USA. France has double-digit unemployment, thanks to socalism. Germany just threw out their Socialist government. Socialism doesn't work. The only success these countries enjoy is when they dabble with free-market economics. History has proved it. You might want to get with the program.

 

"You're confusing many different viewpoints and beliefs into one big mess that you can point at and say "That's the problem, there's the enemy." What sickens me is that you're doing it on purpose."

 

Actually, I'm not confusing anything. Leftism = socialism. A socialist is only a communist who doesn't have the guts to admit what he really thinks. That's why the Democrats have such a hard time explaining their Party "platform"; it's all lies and obfuscation. If they actually told people about everything they really wanted to do, they'd be thrown out of office.

 

Naziism was the enemy.

 

Communism was the enemy.

 

Islamo-fascism IS the enemy.

 

And by the way, I am doing it on purpose.

 

SUPERMAN: TRUTH, JUSTICE, AND THE AMERICAN WAY!

 

#US1#

 

 

 

That was a long post......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but anyway yea its really dumb that they changed it. There was absolutely no reason for it. no matter what they should have kept it the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

now i have the longest post.

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"He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond. "

 

oh no...a threat to the USDA?!?...we simply MUST keep our meat safe from commie superheros!...

 

"And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath."

 

israel...when 62% voter turnout is considered a disappointment here (like it is there) i'll say that we've got it right....when more people vote for politicians than american idol i'll say we've got it right...

 

...skott

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"You can't separate Superman from "the American way of life". Like Americans, Superman is an optimist who fights for a better, brighter future. There's a reason he wasn't created by a Frenchman (he'd be called "Surrender-Man')."

 

 

I'm just curious as to why so many conservatives feel the need to end Pro-American comments with snide Anti-French ones? Even though I agreed with all your other points about changing Supermans slogan, you completely nullified it with these comments. I'm American, but my grandfather was French and served in World War II and I know damn well he gave it his all, and continued to do so even when he had no country left to defend. And quite honestly it sickens me to no end to see his efforts continually mocked, both in forums like this and in the news media. :angry:

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Are we talking about the line in the movie, or has it appeared somewhere else? Cause hell, if i hadn't seen this thread before seeing the movie, I wouldnt have given it a 2nd thought. Its how people talk...hell, I talk like that.

 

Sorry, just felt the need to get away from the definitions of "the american way" and, you know, all that stuff.

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"Are we talking about the line in the movie, or has it appeared somewhere else? Cause hell, if i hadn't seen this thread before seeing the movie, I wouldnt have given it a 2nd thought. Its how people talk...hell, I talk like that."

 

that's what my wife said when i told her about all this uproar over a non-issue...she said that she took the line as "...all that stuff" meaning "...helping the innocent, saving the world, being a example of how good we can be, etc, and yes, the american way"...it was a way of shortening the list of everything that superman stands for...also...it was part of the recurring theme of slightly varying old tag lines...("what is that?...it's a bird...no it's a plane...no it's...you wanted to see me chief?")...skott

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"He WOULD have been a threat to the USDA and freedom, and we WOULD have had to respond. "

 

oh no...a threat to the USDA?!?...we simply MUST keep our meat safe from commie superheros!...

 

"And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath."

 

israel...when 62% voter turnout is considered a disappointment here (like it is there) i'll say that we've got it right....when more people vote for politicians than american idol i'll say we've got it right...

 

...skott

 

OK...you got me on the USDA thing. Dumb typo, very clever response.

 

But I couldn't disagree with you more. When people have the right to vote, but choose not to, that's their business. Frankly, I'd prefer that more of those who are disinterested in politics choose to stay home on election day, and leave the voting to those of us (on either side of the political spectrum) who care.

 

#US1#

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"But I couldn't disagree with you more. When people have the right to vote, but choose not to, that's their business. Frankly, I'd prefer that more of those who are disinterested in politics choose to stay home on election day, and leave the voting to those of us (on either side of the political spectrum) who care."

 

see that's the thing...if we really had perfected democracy then more people would care...people would do the research and learn about candidates and not just vote along party or religious lines...skott

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I don't like "and all that stuff" at all, its not very superherois at all. Thats just bad writing.

I don't think the people who changed the tagline (even if it is rather poor) had the idea that they would try to offend america by taking away the 'and the american way' part.

 

The way I see it, although superman is an american creation, I would like to think that he has his eye on all of the dreams of all of the honest and sincere people in any country that need defending from injustice no matter what country they were in; there are decent and evil people in any country.

 

Patriotism is fine, as long as its not to the detriment of other countries, maybe some people misunderstand it as such? I live in England and there are people in this country who would uphold that england was better when we had the 'empire' and we should bring it back, or that because we were on the winning side of wars that have occurred that we know the best way of running things, and decide to forget about the bad things that we've done, which is so easy to do. I find that way of thinking narrow.

 

Getting political is always messy, and I doubt that I know half as much as some people who post on here, to be honest, I'm a political lightweight, but I've always thought that specifically with terrorists, or suchlike, that if they were so righteous in their cause then they would give life, rather than than take it away,as killing is easier to do, and teaches little, as the world is finding out in these times.

 

If you wanted me to pick a superhero that is the epitomy of righteousness, then of course it is superman, and he would most likely give his own life to protect anyone of this earth. Americans may have coined that concept 'the American Way' but in all reality, its the natural way that any person would want to be treated in any society/culture/community. I'm not attacking it in any way, cos I think it is a fantastic concept, its just I'd like to think that other countries and other individuals that have come to understand this concept of their own accord, independent of any other country have the right to own it, not just america. Maybe this is where the friction of the term 'the American Way' comes from when applied to Superman. I'm all for taking "...and the American Way" from the tagline and putting in something a little more universal, it just makes sense to me.

 

I don't agree with 'surrender man' thats just rude.

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This entire post is, as they say in the military, a "target-rich environment". As I dissect this nonsense, I'll try to be brief. It will hurt, however. Sorry...truth is like that.

 

First of all, there's no indication, either from DC or Millar, that the story "Red Son" was, as you erroneously claim, intended to portray Soviet agit-prop on a Soviet Superman.

You mean aside from his own statements, and those of DC comics?

Regarding the internment of the Japanese during WWII at Manzanar and other places, and the oppression of African-Americans, no one argues that this was wrong. However, its entirely irrelevant to this discussion. Its an attempt to deflect the debate to another issue.

No, it's proof that American propoganda is often wrong.

 

Sorry...ain't workin'. But now that you bring it up...Japanese Americans weren't executed, or forced into work camps. The Governement recently issued a formal apology for this action, and compensated the victims (and need I remind you that the internment of Japanese Americans was done by a Democrat administration? This will be a recurring theme...). Please cite for me the compensation that the Russian government has ever paid to victims of Stalin. Please cite for me Stalin's regret, and apologies. I won't hold my breath.

So it took 50 years for our stable, working government to issue an apology and reparations, and you expect Russia to do the same in the same amount of time, given a revolution less than 20 years ago that still has thier governement in shambles? I'm not saying that those victimized by Stalin's cruelty don't deserve some justice, but it's understandable that it hasn't happened yet.

 

"Sure. The American philosophy calls for a world dominated by democracy- despite the fact that we still haven't figured out how to make it work properly. Every country that has ever developed a 'proper' way to live thinks that thier philosophy is the one everyone should follow. Sociologists call this 'nationalism.' "

 

This is too rich for worlds. Only a fool would be against a world dominated by democracy. Thanks for the example. And please explain how democracy would work "properly" (or better than it does in the USA). Again, I won't hold my breath.

Contrary to popular belief, the US isn't a democracy, at least not by the standards of political science. We are a representative republic. So in order to have democracy work properly, we'd have to have it in the first place. Now, if you want to tell me that we have the best working approximation of democracy in practice right now, I'll agree with you. As for how it could work better... there are books on that, by both Republicans and Democrats. It's much too large a topic to be covered here.

 

I'd also like to point out that I never said I was against a world dominated by democracy. I merely used it as an example in stating that Communism was like every other regime in wanting thier beliefs dominant in the world. This is not the first time you've incorrectly credited viewpoints to me. Please refrain from doing so.

 

"You mean the laughably ineffective Communist groups that often operated out of college campuses as student organizations (which they were), had little to no ties to the government (American or Russian), were often started by some student who read Marx and had no connection to actual Communists at all, and most of which dissolved under persecution from 'patriotic' Americans who didn't understand that only the stupidest spies in the world would be actively involved in a public group that the government they were working against was monitoring? Those organizations?"

 

You are obviously ignorant of both history and politics. The American Left has been attempting to pass themselves off as innocent little angels or misguided "students" for years. To the contrary, an activist, dedicated, pro-communist fifth column had been in operation in the UASA since the 1920's. To assert that they had no connection to the Soviet Gov't is pure idiocy. Siviet archives have confirmed theiur existence, and their usefulness to the Soviet Gov't. Coincidentally, they made great in-roads on campuses in the 1920's, and men like ALger Hiss were prime examples until their shenanigans was exposed by men like Whitaker Chambers and Joseph McCarthy.

Apparently you missed my point. Many of the 'Communist' groups in operation in the US at the beginning of the Cold War were in fact student groups who had no clue what they were talking about. All the persecution of these groups did was make those who weren't serious about it stop talking about it, and strengthen the resolve of those that were. Again, only the stupidest spies would have had any connection to these groups, and they held no power or influence. The ones that DID have any power and influence had it largely because only the most dedicated people were left.

 

To simply assert that the authenticity oif the VERONA Transcripts has been "debated" is laughable! By whom? Former Communists and Left-Wing sympathizers? That's like saying "OJ Simpson didn't kill Nicole, and I know this because OJ told me he's innocent." Nice try. I could go on and on, but you're probably feeling embarrased. So let's go to your next silly statement regarding Joe McCarthy.

Yes, the Verona transcripts have been hotly debated, not by politicians, but by expert analysts. To ignore this debate is to close yourself off to any viewpoint but your own... of course, you're already having a grand time doing that.

 

Joe McCarthy was a courageous man who called-out the Left, and they (and their willing accomplices in Hollywood and the media) have hated him for it ever since. McCarthy was very concerned that that State Department was crawling with Soviet spies. As I've already demonstrated, it was, and he was right. As a challenge, please cite thje name of one (1) person whose life was ruined by Joseph McCarthy. Just one. Please. Again, I won't hoild my breath. But I will say that calling McCarthy a drunk is duly noted. Let's not debate the merits of what he did, let's call him names!!! And I thought you guys were supposed to be so compassionate?!?!? (Incidentally, if McCarthy was such a bad-guy, why did Bobby Kennedy ask him to be God-Father to his first child? Why did John F. Kennedy refer to him as a "great Patriot"?)

McCarthy's alchoholism is a matter of public record. His friends and family have credited him with showing up drunk to congrssional meetings. As for the lives he ruined, one needs to look no further than the Hollywood blacklist... the infamous 'Hollywod Ten' aside, most of the people on the list had no affiliation with Communism, but were damned due to interactions with suspected Communists. This, of course, ignores the fact that if you want to make a paycheck in Hollywood, you don't really have a choice but to associate with a few people who are unsavory in some way.

 

What's this 'you guys' thing? See, again, the crux of your argument is making me representative of the 'enemy', without even caring what my actual beliefs are. I defend some of your 'enemies' and chastise some of your heroes, so I must be part of the problem, right?

 

"Almost all of our enemies from the past are our allies now! Guess what- most of them are the same people! "

 

Yes, but to get them to be our bosom-buddies, first we had to obliterate them on the battlefield and force them to respect their betters (or, in the case of the Russians, utterly destroy their economy. God bless Ronald Reagan!) This is a world that is dominated by the aggressive use of force. Some will use it for tyranny, other for democracy. I guess your Sociology professors didn't clue you in on that one, huh??

This position is as absurd as it is disturbing. "We had to destroy our enemies in order to make them our friends!" Do you even understand the incredibly narrow and unreasonable viewpoint you're advocating?

 

"And what, praytell, is the 'predicament' that we are in that was caused by the PC views you think I have (simply because I don't agree with you), given your obvious support of the people who have been running things for the past six years?"

 

Actually, I glad you asked this one. I've been hinting at it in my lengthy response. Let's have a brief history lesson. The Democrat party is soft on our enemies and loses wars (FDR aside, and if we'd been fighting Communists in WWII, it might have been different). Democrats refused to ackowledge the threat of Communism, so Republicans had to clean upi the mess. Democrats (Carter, Clinton) didn't acknowledge the threat of Radical Islam, so Rep[ublicans will have to clean up the mess. History provides numerous examples. Democrats (America's left) lost China, fought to a needless stalmate in North Korea (MacArthur would've won that one), allowed the Soviets to expand in Asia and Africa in the 60's and 70's, and if Carter had been re-elected in 1980, the Soviet Union would still be around. Clinton's cowardice in Somalia in 1993 led directly to 9/11 (just ask Bin Laden, he said so himself.)

Yes, let's believe the things Bin Laden says. We all know he's the poster child for rational thought.

 

Yes, a good portion of Europe is Socialist. And their economies (and Canada) would absolutely collapse without their trade with the USA. France has double-digit unemployment, thanks to socalism. Germany just threw out their Socialist government. Socialism doesn't work. The only success these countries enjoy is when they dabble with free-market economics. History has proved it. You might want to get with the program.

I'd hate to tell you how long the US would last without the support of these other countries. As I've tried to point out, we are not self-contained. We have to give and take with the entire world, the 'enemy' as well as the ally.

 

Actually, I'm not confusing anything. Leftism = socialism. A socialist is only a communist who doesn't have the guts to admit what he really thinks. That's why the Democrats have such a hard time explaining their Party "platform"; it's all lies and obfuscation. If they actually told people about everything they really wanted to do, they'd be thrown out of office.

There is a difference between being a patriot and a zealot. You know that, right?

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