YO JOE Board Bands Links To.......

[GILTYONE]

What do u guys think about this....... http://forums.yojoe.com/showthread.php?t=38096

What if this happened on this and all related joe boards. I think the YOJOE board is really big in to hasbro itself as like a real "REP" of the company itself. It just sucks these guys who only know the yojoe board lose out on knowin about all the custom goodies the outside joe world has to offer.

[I AM SCI-FI]

I can see their point. Hasbro are sticklers when it comes to bootlegs. If Hasbro were to go after the ones producing the bootlegs yojoe.com could also be sued as an accessory to selling bootlegs. It's sad that Hasbro is the way it is, but you can't blame yojoe.com.

 

BTW, I frequent yojoe.com as Arashikage_Tengu.

[Pit Viper]

I'm surprised this was allowed to go on as long as it has.

[MaxPower]

THat site is very strict.

 

Could this happen here?

 

We don't condone illegal activities, but some stuff seems very gray area-ish.

@hmmm@

[JoeRhyno]

what happened to make them post that? I couldn't find the original post.

[killuminati]

thats lame as lame can be FDRs legs comes to mind,

[Draven79]

Does not surprise me. To be honest I too am surprised Hasbro has not starting cracking down on casted stuff again.

Draven

[Alyosha]

Let me speak from a bit of personal experience here. I have gotten one of the dreaded cease and desist orders (ooohh....scary * ). The main thing that Hasbro is attempting to protect is the copyrighted logo (cobra symbol, etc...) and copyrighted names. They are also trying to avoid any appearance of any ouside Joe related product being endorsed or licensed by them. The whole "custom cast" thing is a a very gray area, and as such not much (if any) action has been taken on this.

 

I remember reading somewhere (while I was doing related research) that he general rule of thumb is that roughly 15% or more of the design must be different/modified to avoid falling under most copyright infringement. That is not to say that it is strictly legal, but again falls under a gray area.

 

YoJoe as a board has taken a very hard line stance against any activity of this related type for whatever reason, and while I don't personally care for it, that is the board admin and the staffs prerogative. Any further discussion of it is mental mastrubation, as it is not going to change their posistion be it right or wrong.

 

On a more personal commentary, I am of a firm mind that this kind of armchair litigation and the general animosity that it breeds is a major problem and nothing good for the hobby can come of it. First and foremost I customize for fun, the sales are a way to support myself and my hobby (customizing and joe). I live a fanboys dream every day, and no lawyer, fine, or even jail is going to take that away. You can have my paintbrush, when you pry it from my cold, dead hand. @smilepunch@

[Doctor Zoidberg]

What's the website that's refered to as being taken down?

[JoeRhyno]

www.billscastedgijoetoys.com

 

but it was taken down

[GILTYONE]

what happened to make them post that? I couldn't find the original post.

 

I don't think it was anyone thing that made them do that. I think because it is more an offical joe board closely looked at by hasbro!

[Three Storms]

THat site is very strict.

 

Could this happen here?

 

We don't condone illegal activities, but some stuff seems very gray area-ish.

@hmmm@

 

 

It's a gray area because most of the time custom-cast stuff is for custom-cast parts or for repro parts that are easily distinguishable from the originals and couldn't possibly be passed off as originals to collectors.

 

 

For custom parts clearly not copies of Hasbro stuff, there is absolutely nothing Hasbro can do about it. There's nothing illegal about it. For repros, it would have to be one hell of a repro that can reasonably convince someone that someone is counterfeitting and trying to pass off a fake as the original. Would Hasbro prosecute someone for making a repro mike to Heavy Metal when Hasbro thinks so little of that character that they themselves probably lost the mold to the mike and the character itself two decades ago? Most likely not. Hasbro would have to prove that it was damaged and the bootleggers took something away from them, and that's impossible to do for figures who's molds are long lost and Hasbro has no intention of restoring.

 

 

Still I hate to get into yet another argument with Yojoe, but unless my memory has gone bad, that Dockingbay and several others there own test shots that I am sure Hasbro would be even madder at than at some guy who makes mikes to a figure they don't give a crap about or a repro head to a figure that Hasbro itself has no intention of restoring (like SE v.2 ot BAT v.1). They are 100% right on the illegality on bootlegging, but if they want to be mr. lawman they should keep their hands off of test shots too as well as any "fell off the truck" figures that many people get from Ebay a month before their actual retail release. Better yet, ban avatars too. I didn't see them get permission to use copyrighted material for their avatars.

 

So emerges my point: yes there's illegality in a lot of things, but there is a point in which enforcement becomes over-zealous and even negative towards the fandom. Is some fan breaking a law by making a custom Snake Eyes with a custom-made head? Yes. Should he be prosecuted for it and for showing his love for the series by spending his time and money on it like that? Hell no. It's not like copying the cartoons that are available on DVD, nor copying any figure that's for sale and using the copies to take money away from Hasbro.

 

 

Still, repros are technically illegal, especially if they're cast from copyrighted original toys...........unless it's for one of the ones Hasbro let the copyright slip to. That would be another gray area open to interpretation.

[gscbr]

 

Still, repros are technically illegal, especially if they're cast from copyrighted original toys...........unless it's for one of the ones Hasbro let the copyright slip to. That would be another gray area open to interpretation.

not quite. Hasbro cannot lose the copyright on any of their toy molds. sure, they may lose the copyright or trademark on character names, but not the physical toy, so there is no gray area of interpretation.

 

Hasbro may not own the name Snow Job anymore, but that doesn't mean you can reproduce any part of the Snow Job mold.

 

Still I hate to get into yet another argument with Yojoe, but unless my memory has gone bad, that Dockingbay and several others there own test shots that I am sure Hasbro would be even madder at than at some guy who makes mikes to a figure they don't give a crap about or a repro head to a figure that Hasbro itself has no intention of restoring (like SE v.2 ot BAT v.1). They are 100% right on the illegality on bootlegging, but if they want to be mr. lawman they should keep their hands off of test shots too as well as any "fell off the truck" figures that many people get from Ebay a month before their actual retail release. Better yet, ban avatars too. I didn't see them get permission to use copyrighted material for their avatars.

whether they own these items or not has nothing to do with whether they allow them to be sold or traded on their site. again, two different things entirely.

 

and it isn't even hypocritical of them either. Yojoe isn't saying that members cannot own them, or is chastising anyone for doing so, just saying members cannot trade or sell them at their site for legal reasons.

[code red shockwave]

Well if Hasbro watches so carefully, maybe they'd listen to what we'd have to say and give us more than 25% of our requests. I personally don't have a problem with repro items, but on the other hand, if Hasbro won't start casting newer parts, then we have to do it ourselves.

[Three Storms]

whether they own these items or not has nothing to do with whether they allow them to be sold or traded on their site. again, two different things entirely.

 

and it isn't even hypocritical of them either. Yojoe isn't saying that members cannot own them, or is chastising anyone for doing so, just saying members cannot trade or sell them at their site for legal reasons.

 

It's illegal. Buying stolen test shots or even worst counterfeit ones made "after hours" from Hong Kong dealers is a bigger crime than reproducing a mike to a character Hasbro has no intention of reproducing and selling itself. It's especially a problem when considering many get ahold of them before the final toy is even released by Hasbro. What do you think would get Hasbro the maddest? A repro head to a figure Hasbro lost the mold to and won't bother with, or a test shot or "fell off the truck" special sometimes aquired before Hasbro itself has had the chance to make the figure public? Remember how mad they got over the pre-released Unicron pictures before answering that.

[kolobosrexx]

Personally, I think it's dopey crap. Of course I understand & respect Hasbro's product ownership rights... But this is essentially just glorified pro-quality customizing & exchanging between a very small & select audience. It's not like it's actually cutting into Hasbro's profits! In actuality, it's just creating & sustaining enthusiasm in a product Hasbro only seems to half-care about any more! Let's face it, they've gotten lazy in regards to meeting the needs of their primary consumers. "We'll just throw whatever we can be botherd with on the market, and they'll buy it or we'll cancel the line!" This was the same half-assed mentality that Mattel applied when they managed to take the Four Horseman's brilliantly designed & conceived MOTU 2002 relaunch and run it straight into the ground in less than two years! And then they will blame the fans for not showing enough support. And putting sites like YoJoe into the position of having to be hostile towards what is honestly just enhancing & supporting the line, & the hobby of figure-collecting/customizing in general is akin to the Nazis making German citizens turn on their neighbors... In a matter of speaking figuratively!

[GILTYONE]

THat site is very strict.

 

Could this happen here?

 

We don't condone illegal activities, but some stuff seems very gray area-ish.

@hmmm@

 

 

It's a gray area because most of the time custom-cast stuff is for custom-cast parts or for repro parts that are easily distinguishable from the originals and couldn't possibly be passed off as originals to collectors.

 

 

For custom parts clearly not copies of Hasbro stuff, there is absolutely nothing Hasbro can do about it. There's nothing illegal about it. For repros, it would have to be one hell of a repro that can reasonably convince someone that someone is counterfeitting and trying to pass off a fake as the original. Would Hasbro prosecute someone for making a repro mike to Heavy Metal when Hasbro thinks so little of that character that they themselves probably lost the mold to the mike and the character itself two decades ago? Most likely not. Hasbro would have to prove that it was damaged and the bootleggers took something away from them, and that's impossible to do for figures who's molds are long lost and Hasbro has no intention of restoring.

 

 

Still I hate to get into yet another argument with Yojoe, but unless my memory has gone bad, that Dockingbay and several others there own test shots that I am sure Hasbro would be even madder at than at some guy who makes mikes to a figure they don't give a crap about or a repro head to a figure that Hasbro itself has no intention of restoring (like SE v.2 ot BAT v.1). They are 100% right on the illegality on bootlegging, but if they want to be mr. lawman they should keep their hands off of test shots too as well as any "fell off the truck" figures that many people get from Ebay a month before their actual retail release. Better yet, ban avatars too. I didn't see them get permission to use copyrighted material for their avatars.

 

So emerges my point: yes there's illegality in a lot of things, but there is a point in which enforcement becomes over-zealous and even negative towards the fandom. Is some fan breaking a law by making a custom Snake Eyes with a custom-made head? Yes. Should he be prosecuted for it and for showing his love for the series by spending his time and money on it like that? Hell no. It's not like copying the cartoons that are available on DVD, nor copying any figure that's for sale and using the copies to take money away from Hasbro.

 

 

Still, repros are technically illegal, especially if they're cast from copyrighted original toys...........unless it's for one of the ones Hasbro let the copyright slip to. That would be another gray area open to interpretation.

Good points!

[Alyosha]

Again, I won't argue the legality of the issue. It's YoJoe's admins right to enfore poilcy as they see fit. When Terry Dizzard took over those duties from that board, I asked to be removed from the members list there because I didn't want to have anything to do with a board that he was the steward of because of things like this.

 

TS brings up a very good point. At what point does this kind of action become negative towards the hobby and the hobbyists and where is the line of hypocrisy start and stop with regards to "illegaql" acitivites? I won't argue the semantics of it, but would like to see it given soem thought.

 

GSCBR also brings up a good point, that the trade or sale acitivity is the issue here, and not teh ownership of these items. Although related, they are two seperate issues. The thing that I would like to add to that though, is let "let he who is without sin, cast the first stone".

 

Now all that being said, it is a shame that a lot of Joe guys are going ot miss out on some very cool stuff because they do not know to frequent other "open minded" boards. Another thing to remember before anyone goes flying off the handle about this:

 

The design guys, and the "toy" guys love customs and toy, so don't hate on them for any of this. That's how they got started. The problem (as it always is) is the suits and the lawyers. They are businessmen, and see only one thing...the bottom line and anything that threatens that is to be quashed posthaste and it's the lawyers jobs to do it.

[kolobosrexx]

Seriously, Al? That's why you aren't around there any more? That sucks.

[robot_sonic]

Buying stolen test shots or even worst counterfeit ones made "after hours" from Hong Kong dealers is a bigger crime than reproducing a mike to a character Hasbro has no intention of reproducing and selling itself.

Not too steer this too far off topic, but I disagree with this. While certain American collectors have made it their pasttime to cast doubt on the origins of the Asian figures, the reality is that there is NO proof those items were "stolen" or "fake". As such, it is highly problematic to compare the two as these figures are likely from legitimate sources whereas the repro stuff is always crossing a legal threshhold.

 

As to the issue at hand, I feel the policy there is simply to insulate Action Online from any potential liabilities. It's not that they think they will get sued. But, they make their money by playing nice with Hasbro and other toy makers. As such, they're going to bend over backwards to appease them: even to the point of absurdity in some cases. But, with a corporate owned board, that's how it's going to be. It's not like there aren't alternatives for Joe chat out there.

 

I will go on the record personally, though, as saying that exact replications of Hasbro parts are bad for the hobby. While I'd love to be able to buy up 100's of repro Red Star rifles for my army builders, I don't want fake Heavy Metal mics floating around and undermining the integrity of the line as a whole. While I know that people want some of these rare pieces, I'm a firm believer that the line is stronger when there are rare, hard to find and expensive parts that comprise the whole. Without these, the line has little to offer since everything is easy to get. As such, I want there to continue to be expensive pieces and let the casters focus on new, interesting items that enhance the line, not steal from and devalue it.

[kolobosrexx]

Robot_sonic, I get what you mean about precise replicas of old, & especially rare & valued parts, naturally. But when it comes to making things like casts of Viper-heads to be used as removable helmets on Hasbro's own figures, I see no issue with that personally... And since goodtogo is more about making totally new items, or at least new approaches, i.e. the heads as helmets casts, I don't see why YoJoe is down on that, since such things aren't hurting them. Even recasting vintage parts isn't particularly damaiging to them, since they don't profit off of secondary market resales anyway...

[Leonardo T Dragon]

Let's face it, they've gotten lazy in regards to meeting the needs of their primary consumers.

 

Normally I'd stay out of this discussion but I had to respond to this one particular statement.

 

Collectors (and I am one) frequently delude themselves with statements like that one quoted above. It's a common misconception-- after all, we (collectors) are adults and therefore spend more money on Joe than parents who buy solely for their kids, right?

 

Wrong. Collectors do not drive sales in lines like GIJoe and Transformers, etc. We pad sales. We add to the sales gain but we are in no way the driving force behind those sales. Sales drivers for childrens lines are... the children. They are the target demographic, not a bunch of 20+ guys (or in my case 30+) who frequent web forums and argue over whether or not Ice Cream Soldier deserved a version two. We're a very small part of the overall pie and every time I see statements like this it drives me up a wall. If we all expect Hasbro to cater primarily to us, then we're all sadly deluded.

 

It's not to say that Hasbro can't benefit from collector input but to say that we're the primary target audience is completely and utterly wrong. There just aren't enough of us to sustain the line without additional numbers.

[Master_Gunzz]

Well I feel the need to chime in here. I've actually talked to a patent/copyright lawyer about this. The reason Hasbro does what it does to people who reproduce their stuff is for one simple reason, they have to pursue anyone that is using their copyrighted material because if they don't they stand to lose it by default which is called 'copyright abandonment'.

 

It's the entire character design and name that's copyrighted not it's parts. I've seen many Joe parts used on other figures made by other companies. Heck I've seen complete Joes that have been clearly bootlegged and tossed into Easter baskets at K-mart for that matter. But for the most part it's the entire character design and name. This issue has only recently come up and until they begin to copyright each part of each figure for the most part it seems that it's fair game.

 

For some guns or vehicles they do have to get a license to make. Remember what happened to Lanard? General Motors sued them for making the Hummer they put out because they didn't have the license to do that.

 

The lawyer that I spoke to took a look at my custom figures and told me flat out that he could copyright them even though none of the parts were modified. You all have seen my custom AVs. This was one that he looked at. He said as long as they didn't have that particular design copyrighted it was fair game. But he did warn me to stay away from using their copyrighted names.

 

But I didn't pursue it cause I really didnt want the hassle of paying big lawyer fees and the possible confrontation by the big H in court even though I may be in the right, that kinda stuff is nothing but a drag and gets costly.

[kolobosrexx]

I didn't mean to say that collectors are the primary money-maker, having been as attentive to the biz-end of the hobby as I have the fun-end all these years I'd be silly to think so! I know naturally that kids are what drive MOST figure-lines, though there are exceptions of note, mainly "Marvel Legends" I think... I mean, you can argue that till doomsday, but that line sells to fans & collectors, almost exclusively! When the Wal-Mart Giant-Man wave and the two-packs that accompanied it sold out all over Vegas at EVERY Wal-Mart within three days? That wasn't the kids, or their parents, folks! Becuase KIDS certainly don't know who the Sentry, Captain Britan, Warbird, or maybe even Kitty Pryde are! Kids barely even read comics these days. Thor, sure! Even Ant-Man has some small familiarity (though not the Scott Lang version they released), and most kids probably know Sabretooth & Wolverine, AOA or not... Anyway, sorry to digress, but like I was saying, I didn't mean to imply that adult collectors drove the line's sales totally, but once DTC started, and it was an on-line only thing, that, folks, is not kid-driven. Kids don't shop online, and most parents won't for their kids, when they can just as easily find something else down the street at Wal-Mart. My point is that Hasbro then deliberately split its marketing focus, with Sigma6 naturally aimed at kids, and DTC for the collectors. Which would be fine, except that the DTC end of things has been kind of uneven. With the DTC stuff hitting TRU now, I think it'll hopefully catch kids' eyes again... Either way, it's fine to see S6 keeping kids interested in Joe, but it just seems wrong for Hasbro to crap on any part of the fanbase, much less making unaffiliated fan-sites do it as well.

[Rogue00009]

Ugh, Yo Joe and the politics of TOYS!!!!!!! Geez. Oooh Ooohh I know, lets take Caster "X" to court while we push this muderer off to the side for a few more weeks this is more important.