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Dick VS Jason


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I just read all the post again....from what i see it was Snake making a correction to something you had said. Then some how alot of mud gets tossed...in the middle of both comments back and forth, it was stated that Jason Todds return to life was done after Hush because the Hush Todd was seen to be Clayface. But in the Annual Clayface stepped in after Jason saw what Batman had in him still. Now the point can be argued was that the intent all along or was that an excuse to get Jason back in?

 

 

Im going to stick to my inital comment that both Snake and Omega are at fault, i will not up any warning levels in this case due to both being at fault and it wasnt a big offence.

 

Now to get the topic back on track....

 

 

it was stated that Jason Todds return to life was done after Hush because the Hush Todd was seen to be Clayface. But in the Annual Clayface stepped in after Jason saw what Batman had in him still. Now the point can be argued was that the intent all along or was that an excuse to get Jason back in?

Thank you Hardrock for understanding the situation and answering my previous question on where Todd ACTUALLY appeared in Hush which Omega neglected to answer for some reason. :huh:

 

He just hurled as much blame at you as he did at me so why are you foolishly pretending he's on your side. You *NEVER* asked me a quesion so how could I have answered you? Your replies just keep getting more and more dumb. Unless you end a sentence with a question mark, you have *NOT* asked a question. That's an undeniable fact.

 

HardRockBatman00 is choosing to make this thread needlessly complicated and strangely giving you credit for things you never said. Evidently, he can't keep track of who said what in a conversation between 2 people. So the thanks you're giving him belonged to me if you had been paying attention. I said Jason is an adult. You think that's identical to him being old which is preposterous. If HardRockBatman00 genuinely agrees with you, I hope he's consistent and labels everyone over 18 as old for the rest of his life.

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Dick has been in every DC war, every crisis ect. BUT like we said earlier. From time to time the writers get stupid and just dont know what way to go. So lets kill Dick. And then one of the heads came up and said "WHAT THE HELL ARE U GUYS DOING". So what if they WERE going to kill Dick. They DID kill Jason and the only thing more sad then Jason dieing was the way they brought him back.

 

You're leaping to conclusions and now have things backwards. Dan Didio is the ultimate head at DC and he's the guy who wanted Dick Grayson dead. ###### Johns evidently convinced him to reconsider but it's already been stated that it comes with a price. Dick was allowed to live provided he's changed in a major way. At this point, it's unknown what that means but it might be so significant and controversial that you'll wish they just killed him instead.

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Nightwing is one of my favorites. But the main reason I'm glad that he didn't die is his ties to the Outsiders. That stuff is really getting good, and the team wouldn't be half of what it is right now without Nightwing.

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Nightwing is one of my favorites. But the main reason I'm glad that he didn't die is his ties to the Outsiders. That stuff is really getting good, and the team wouldn't be half of what it is right now without Nightwing.

 

Well, I firmly believe everything being done by Dick in the first Outsiders issue occuring one year later would have been attributed to Jason instead. So if you like Judd Winnick's depiction of Dick right now, you probably would have liked the title equally with Jason as leader.

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In my eyes it would have been stupid to kill Nightwing just to make Jason become him. And if Jason doesnt like being replaced then stop trying to do the replacing. And I think he is trying to mess with Dick. Because he didnt try and become Robin or Batman for that matter. They were all gone for a year right? And why do so many people and the DC writers forget how long Nightwing as been around. And how much work he as done over all these years.

 

We have all seen heros come and go. Dick has been around since he was 10. He must be doing something right. We have seen Superman die, GL die, Donna Troy die, Superboy die(and in comic time he was only around for about 3-4 years), ect. Dick has been in every DC war, every crisis ect. BUT like we said earlier. From time to time the writers get stupid and just dont know what way to go. So lets kill Dick. And then one of the heads came up and said "WHAT THE HELL ARE U GUYS DOING". So what if they WERE going to kill Dick. They DID kill Jason and the only thing more sad then Jason dieing was the way they brought him back.

 

So its okay if people dont think Dick is a outstandingly great hero. BUT think to your self about your favorite hero and I know Dick as been around longer or just as long. And for that point has put in more work.

Believe me I'll be just as mad if they killed Nightwing, his part in the Batman Universe is too integral to me.

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I still believe that anything they throw at Dick he should be able to handle. The only way they could do something on that level is by making it not make complete sense(like JT comming back). Anything that happens to the family that is that bad for the most part just hasnt mad to much sense. Whick is the REAL purpose is started this thread. To say that i hate the way that they make thing happen in DC.

 

HELL Dick has be going from problem to problem sense Nightwing #. The only change that would make sense is if they give the guy a freaking break.

 

Sorry for the miss spellings. I was going pretty fast at work. Can u help out HARDROCK.

 

And I meant to say sense Nightwing #1

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Nightwing is one of my favorites. But the main reason I'm glad that he didn't die is his ties to the Outsiders. That stuff is really getting good, and the team wouldn't be half of what it is right now without Nightwing.

 

Well, I firmly believe everything being done by Dick in the first Outsiders issue occuring one year later would have been attributed to Jason instead. So if you like Judd Winnick's depiction of Dick right now, you probably would have liked the title equally with Jason as leader.

Well I like the Jason Todd character, but I feel Nightwing brings something to the book that Jason couldn't. His prior relation to both the Outsiders, and to characters like Superman make it all seem to matter more, Jason Todd is no stranger to crossing lines, Nightwing crossing them just seems to have more of an emotional impact. Plus there is the whole scare factor, Nightwing, like Batman, is all dark and intimidating in a way that Jason, no matter how good a fighter, or how much of a badass he is. But that just might be me and my opinion.

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But wait- not content with all of this, he then proceeds to try to kill Tim Drake for the perceived crime of being the new Robin, and is now messing with Nightwing because (as near as I can tell through all the bad writing) he's jealous that Dick was the first Robin.

 

Yup, that's one well-planned, well-executed, and cleverly done character, all right. If DC isn't just pulling stuff out of it's collective butt, then they need to explain why it all reads and plays out like a steaming pile of dung.

 

What gave you that weird idea? Jason never said he was trying to kill Tim. He was frustrated because Tim is considered a better Robin than him not simply because he replaced him. Superheroes fight each other all the time but very rarely want each other dead. You jumped to the wrong conclusion. That Teen Titans issue ends with Tim defeated and unconscious so Jason had the perfect opportunity to deal a deathblow but that wasn't his goal.

Not by the time that the fight was over, no. At the beginning, it's pretty damn obvious that Jason didn't think Tim was 'worthy' to be Robin, and needed to die for it. Tim proved him wrong, and Jason had to run for his life from the other Titans anyway, so he didn't off him.

Likewise, Jason doesn't hate Dick at all and he isn't jealous either. Did you even read the first conversation between the two since Jason's return? Nightwing has been missing for one year so Jason decides to adopt the identity. Maybe he even respects Dick more than Bruce at that point.

 

He's not upset when he runs into Dick. In fact, he generously suggests sharing the identity but Dick isn't happy with that arrangement. Don't blame Bruce Jones because you can't remember important dialogue.

First, do not attempt to insult my intelligence or my memory. That is the number one reason why you get into so many arguments around here: you can't just say 'Hey, you're missing this line' or 'read the issue again, I think you missed something'. You feel the need to inflate your egto by claiming to read and understand all, while insulting the comprehension of those you speak to. You then wonder why everyone wants to pick a fight with your superiority complex. The second page of this very thread is a shining example of that. Instead of seeing the obvious problem (you said 'adult', it was interpreted as 'old') and explaining that, you chose to go to verbal battle, which accomplished nothing but adding another sensless argument to the internet.

 

But I digress. Jason did indeed adopt the Nightwing identity when he thought Dick gave it up, but now that Dick has come back to the role (ironically, because Jason isn't doing it very well), Jason began to fight with him over who should keep it. His comments have made it quite clear that he doesn't think that Dick is as good as he is, and that while Dick was the first Robin, Jason believes he was the best.

Furthermore, a lot of your complaints neglect the real reasons behind why decisions were made at DC. Dick was supposed to die in Infinite Crisis and Jason was clearly going to be the all new Nightwing. When this idea was rejected at the last minute, they had no choice but to have Dick & Jason fight over the identity.

They had plenty of choice. Nothing was set in stone. There was no solicit for the OYL issues at that point. Jason could have been in the title (or not) doing all kinds of things. Instead, we got a badly-written rehash of Knightsend.

 

I'll fully admit that I'm biased when it comes to this character. I just don't see where it was that great of an idea to bring him back, and I think he's been handled poorly, making it all the more unecessary. You've got to admit, there's been a lot of 'one step forward, two steps back' decision-making and storytelling at DC in the last year, and I think it's really starting to show in some of their books and their characters. I think Jason Todd is just the biggest example of that.

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But wait- not content with all of this, he then proceeds to try to kill Tim Drake for the perceived crime of being the new Robin, and is now messing with Nightwing because (as near as I can tell through all the bad writing) he's jealous that Dick was the first Robin.

 

Yup, that's one well-planned, well-executed, and cleverly done character, all right. If DC isn't just pulling stuff out of it's collective butt, then they need to explain why it all reads and plays out like a steaming pile of dung.

 

What gave you that weird idea? Jason never said he was trying to kill Tim. He was frustrated because Tim is considered a better Robin than him not simply because he replaced him. Superheroes fight each other all the time but very rarely want each other dead. You jumped to the wrong conclusion. That Teen Titans issue ends with Tim defeated and unconscious so Jason had the perfect opportunity to deal a deathblow but that wasn't his goal.

Not by the time that the fight was over, no. At the beginning, it's pretty damn obvious that Jason didn't think Tim was 'worthy' to be Robin, and needed to die for it. Tim proved him wrong, and Jason had to run for his life from the other Titans anyway, so he didn't off him.

Likewise, Jason doesn't hate Dick at all and he isn't jealous either. Did you even read the first conversation between the two since Jason's return? Nightwing has been missing for one year so Jason decides to adopt the identity. Maybe he even respects Dick more than Bruce at that point.

 

He's not upset when he runs into Dick. In fact, he generously suggests sharing the identity but Dick isn't happy with that arrangement. Don't blame Bruce Jones because you can't remember important dialogue.

First, do not attempt to insult my intelligence or my memory. That is the number one reason why you get into so many arguments around here: you can't just say 'Hey, you're missing this line' or 'read the issue again, I think you missed something'. You feel the need to inflate your egto by claiming to read and understand all, while insulting the comprehension of those you speak to. You then wonder why everyone wants to pick a fight with your superiority complex. The second page of this very thread is a shining example of that. Instead of seeing the obvious problem (you said 'adult', it was interpreted as 'old') and explaining that, you chose to go to verbal battle, which accomplished nothing but adding another sensless argument to the internet.

 

But I digress. Jason did indeed adopt the Nightwing identity when he thought Dick gave it up, but now that Dick has come back to the role (ironically, because Jason isn't doing it very well), Jason began to fight with him over who should keep it. His comments have made it quite clear that he doesn't think that Dick is as good as he is, and that while Dick was the first Robin, Jason believes he was the best.

Furthermore, a lot of your complaints neglect the real reasons behind why decisions were made at DC. Dick was supposed to die in Infinite Crisis and Jason was clearly going to be the all new Nightwing. When this idea was rejected at the last minute, they had no choice but to have Dick & Jason fight over the identity.

They had plenty of choice. Nothing was set in stone. There was no solicit for the OYL issues at that point. Jason could have been in the title (or not) doing all kinds of things. Instead, we got a badly-written rehash of Knightsend.

 

I'll fully admit that I'm biased when it comes to this character. I just don't see where it was that great of an idea to bring him back, and I think he's been handled poorly, making it all the more unecessary. You've got to admit, there's been a lot of 'one step forward, two steps back' decision-making and storytelling at DC in the last year, and I think it's really starting to show in some of their books and their characters. I think Jason Todd is just the biggest example of that.

 

It's not obvious. As I recall, Jason never said he wanted Tim to die and the other Teen Titans did not revive in time to help Tim.

 

I didn't insult you in any way but your memory was indeed at fault. Furthermore, I see no problem with getting into arguements. That's one the main purposes behind this message board existing. I'm not inflating my ego by pointing out all your assumptions are faulty to begin with. If you're going to rip a writer's work to shreds and include vitriol in every sentence, don't be surprised when people correct you with an attitude too.

 

I never claimed to be superior but I do get annoyed when the overwhelming majority of people who complain that something "sucks" fundamentally don't want to understand why a decision was made. For instance, it's one thing to say you don't like Infinite Crisis (although I do) and another to say Alex Luthor's motivation is bizarre or vague. Give me a break. It's not hard to grasp his point of view.

 

Likewise, I never wondered why people pick a fit with me. That's a shining example of you being a liar. I probably have access to more comic books than most. So I often have evidence that certain things are incorrect. I don't see how trusting published material which is canon translates into having a superiority complex. I'm grateful towards anyone correcting me with indisputable facts because it means my expertise has grown from their knowledge.

 

There was nothing pointless about the fight with snakeplissken. I understandably didn't even comprehend what he was referring to until the insults were well underway. You seriously need to grasp that I don't need to follow your recommendations. You're not a moderator which means you have no authority here at all.

 

You're again making false statements. Jason did *NOT* instigate the fight with Dick one year later. Read the issue again. Did he have a right to be upset at Jason adopting the identity? Sure. He had the proper motivation but that doesn't change the facts. Jason was willing to compromise which wasn't good enough for Dick. As for Jason not respecting Dick, you're again adding things into Bruce Jones' script which are not there.

 

Dick is rusty and out of shape one year later while Jason is not. Therefore, Todd is better. That has nothing whatsoever to do with respect though. I can believe that Jason might look up to Dick more than any other superhero but I admit that's only a possibility. As for your belief that Jason isn't doing too well, I guess you'd rather see that little girl kidnapped or dead.

 

That's not true. The first One Year Later solicitation came out at the same time as Infinite Crisis #6. You're again acting as though you know behind the scenes details which the public isn't privy too. Incidentally, have you read Shadowpact #1? If so, you'd know that the plot and hence the title itself contains major continuity gaffes with 52. Bill Willingham has revealed that these blunders happened because his script was approved and pencilled prior to 52 being outlined. In other words, it was too late to change Shadowpact #1 even though it shipped only one week after 52 began.

 

Dan Didio has already explained that keeping Dick alive was a last minute decision. More information should be available in next week's Wizard: The Comics Magazine #178 and the upcoming Hardcover edition of Infinite Crisis. If you don't want to believe the man, that's your business. I've already provided reasons supporting why Jason was probably the sole protagonist in Bruce's first draft for issue 118 and I don't feel like repeating them.

 

Personally, my interest in Judd's Batman title skyrocketed when Jason was revealed to be the Red Hood. If he was brought back as a child still wearing the Robin outfit, I wouldn't have been as enthusiastic. In my opinion, it's still too early to say whether his return is helpful or harmful long term to the Batman franchise. Anyways, I'm bored of this conversation and have no desire to reply to you anymore. Saying you're biased is a huge understatement. Hating Jason is fine but intentionally distorting his dialogue to make him appear psychotic is pointless to me.

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To me Nightwing is the second best fighter in comics period.

 

 

I am really hoping you meant DC comics.. thats what you meant, right? Because if not, im ready to compile a small essay of characters who are better fighters than Dick Grayson.

 

And I for one liked the Under the Hood graphic novel, it was entertaining.

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The bottom line is that I previously stated Jason was an adult in Hush and Snakeplissken somehow believes that's the same thing as saying he's old and unnecessarily informing me that he's Clayface. Of course, that makes no sense either because there was no physical difference between Jason and Clayface impersonating Jason.

 

 

actually there were some physical differences mainly the Hair

 

cover of Batman #638 second print

batman638b.jpg

 

image from hush

Jason1.jpg

 

but the body size is different. Jason as Hush seems bulkier in every detail legs shoulders. but over all difference in Hush Jason had the white in his hair. he never had that in the Red Hood story arc.

 

i am in no way trying to start any sort of fight with you just correcting you when you were mistaken.

 

i enjoyed the whole red hood story. i thought it was great but i see jason as a character that will be wasted. i dont see him having a good spot in the universe. i dont think its fair that he takes over the role of an established character either ie nightwing or batman. i think there is plently more they can do with the character tho as Red Hood. ( let batman have him on the verg of reform of going back to the good side then allow him to murder infront of batman, have batman blame himself) Marvel wrapped up "Underworld" 2 weeks ago and it was just a gang type book maybe they could do that with Red Hood make him like Punisher or something. dc has lots of crime lords. i personally enjoyed Black Mask vs Red Hood. it made for great entertainment. have jason go around and mess with batman, robin and nightwing. they just need to find something good to do with him. him being a copycat to nightwing will get old rather fast.

 

now Dick Grayson is one of my favorite charcters ever. he has not always been wrote well i've have and have read every issue of the series 1-121 including all mini-series, one shots. i see where it can be argued that bruce jones stories really had jason in mind but if you remove dick from it and focus jason taking on the brothers it does not seem near as interesting to me. dick's the ladies man wise cracking tough guy. even with the opponent bigger he still tries and makes jokes. even in outsiders if judd wrote it with jason in mind it just would not be as intresting. ie last issue when nightwing had the lead box and was face to face with superman in my opinion that was a complete batman move. killing dick off would have been a mistake that would of sparked a lot of hate topics just like killing hal jordan, and superman and green arrow. and look all those characters are back. i dont doubt dick would of came back as well. im looking forward to seeing what was suppose to have happen to dick. Dick still has potential and such a rich history with batman. i dont see him as a character that should be killed off. he is one of few humans that can take on the big boys.

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The bottom line is that I previously stated Jason was an adult in Hush and Snakeplissken somehow believes that's the same thing as saying he's old and unnecessarily informing me that he's Clayface. Of course, that makes no sense either because there was no physical difference between Jason and Clayface impersonating Jason.

 

 

actually there were some physical differences mainly the Hair

 

cover of Batman #638 second print

batman638b.jpg

 

image from hush

Jason1.jpg

 

Batman Annual #25 depicts Jason Todd alongside Clayface and they both have that white streak in their hair. I suppose I should have specified but I definitely meant to say there were no physical differences between the two during the Hush story arc. So your observation is technically right but I wasn't mistaken either.

 

As for any perceived differences in build, I believe that falls under the cateogory of artistic interpretation. Artists like Bart Sears, Andy Smith, and Ed McGuiness are notorious for drawing all DC superheroes totally ripped regardless of who they are. I highly doubt Doug Manke intentionally drew Jason less muscular than Jim Lee.

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OKAY, this is going to get sticky. I've talked about this a couple of years back, and it got real bad. I know its all about how the writers write them. BUT the way I see it is. So far as triaining, years of fighting, and knowledge of fighting arts. Yes in all of comics I think he SHOULD be the second best to Batman.

 

HOLD ON...

 

I say this because if you look a the best of the best other then Bats. I WOULD SAY. Logan, Cap, DD, Spidy ect. People on that level.

 

Now I said fighter. I didnt say he could beat all but Batman.

 

Cap is great. BUT I just dont think he has the training and knowledge of martial arts that Dick has. Did I say he would win? I DID NOT.

 

Logan is also a great figher who has martial art training BUT for the most part cant remember what he learned. And if not for his healing factor would have died a long time ago.

 

About 2 years ago I started a Nightwing VS Spiderman thread because of how easy Batman beat Carnage. Im not going there again. Who ever remembers know how bad that got. People where really talking about killing eachother.

 

BUT. For a human with no added power Nightwing is head of the class.

 

I thing I proved my point so far as where he is in DC.

 

There is a guy named Chris Comier, who is a world class bodybuilder. I know this dude from when is worked at Gold's Gym. This dude is no joke. I am in the martial arts and would NEVER take a swing a this dude cuz I just to feel like it would do anything. Am I a better figher? YES. Would I win HELL NO. There lack of power is what holds them down but also makes them so great. Because all the have is their skills.

 

But I do think that any human (just human) that is put up against NW. NW would win

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@hmmm@

 

I honestly don't mean this is as a jab but have you read the end of Nightwing #118 a second time since you bought it? At first, I couldn't keep track of who was who either since the panels are quite small and Joe Dodd & Bit don't add a ton of detail to their pages. However, I kept reading the dialogue over and over again until it was clear which Nightwing and Pierce Brother was which in each scene. You may think it's out of character for Dick to be the one to start a fight with Jason but that's how it happened.

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It's not obvious. As I recall, Jason never said he wanted Tim to die and the other Teen Titans did not revive in time to help Tim.

Nope. Beating someone half to death while raving like a madman makes him a pussycat. Honestly, did you think his intentions were to just drop by and chat about girls? No. He showed up in a Robin suit (which shows a desire to replace Tim more than any words could), told Tim he was second-rate (among other things), and beat him to within an inch of his life. No, he didn't walk into that tower intending to kill Tim at all... at the very least, his intention was to prove that he could.

 

I didn't insult you in any way but your memory was indeed at fault.

Excuse? If you're going to nitpick dialogue in comics and on message boards, you'd better be prepared for people to do the same to you. "Don't blame Bruce Jones because you can't remember important dialogue." This is a direct insult to my mental capacity. Not only that, but it's an insult to my very personality, saying that I'm pushing blame onto others.

 

Furthermore, I see no problem with getting into arguements. That's one the main purposes behind this message board existing. I'm not inflating my ego by pointing out all your assumptions are faulty to begin with. If you're going to rip a writer's work to shreds and include vitriol in every sentence, don't be surprised when people correct you with an attitude too.

Vitriol? I think that's entirely POV, but that makes it semantics. My point wasn't that there is an issue with arguments, but that you insist on creating them rather than being civil. Your concept of 'sharing knowledge' apparently involves lording it over others and trying to make them feel inadequete. That, I cannot abide.

 

I never claimed to be superior but I do get annoyed when the overwhelming majority of people who complain that something "sucks" fundamentally don't want to understand why a decision was made. For instance, it's one thing to say you don't like Infinite Crisis (although I do) and another to say Alex Luthor's motivation is bizarre or vague. Give me a break. It's not hard to grasp his point of view.

So, when you insult the intelligence of everyone you speak to, how are you NOT claiming to be superior?

 

As for Crisis, I could argue the horrid nature of that story all day. The big villains were a bunch of people who no one had seen in twenty years. They were used as an excuse to correct every past mistake or bad decision DC has ever made. Superboy died from injuries that he shouldn't have even sustained. Of course, let's not forget that one of the major threats in this series was 'Alexander Luthor's Giant Golden Hands of Doom.' That was easily one of the most ridiculous visuals I've seen in a comic in... well, twenty years. However, this is a topic for another thread.

 

Likewise, I never wondered why people pick a fit with me. That's a shining example of you being a liar.

Whoa! Name-calling! The resort of those who don't have a leg to stand on. Would you like me to provide the quotes in which you make comments of the nature of 'I don't understand why you continue to argue this'? I'm sure there's a few of them in this thread.

 

I probably have access to more comic books than most. So I often have evidence that certain things are incorrect. I don't see how trusting published material which is canon translates into having a superiority complex. I'm grateful towards anyone correcting me with indisputable facts because it means my expertise has grown from their knowledge.

The superiority complex I mention has nothing to do with how many comics you own. It's how you present your knowledge, which you don't do in a civil fashion. Instead of saying "hey, read this issue", or "check out this page", you insult people's intelligence for not having read the issue, or in some cases, not having read the multiple tie-ins that go along with what is being talked about. Comics today are confusing- sometimes, like in the case of Jason Todd being in Hush, something is made canon in an interview, but not actually put into a comic until months later. Instead of recognizing that it's hard to keep up and providing this information politely, you try to belittle the person for not keeping up.

 

As far as being grateful is concerned... yeah, okay. The "technically I was wrong, but I'm still right" concession you make above is about as close as I've ever seen you to being grateful. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen you think you are wrong, or accept another person's viewpoint as a valid opinion.

 

There was nothing pointless about the fight with snakeplissken. I understandably didn't even comprehend what he was referring to until the insults were well underway.

Too bad you never even acknowledged that... and that you started the insults. Nice to know that you realized you were wrong, but did nothing to defuse the situation. Nope, no superiority complex working there, no sirree...

 

You seriously need to grasp that I don't need to follow your recommendations. You're not a moderator which means you have no authority here at all.

I never claimed to be a mod. I never claimed to have authority. Please, I deeply beg your humble forgiveness. It was wrong of me to suggest that you treat others with respect and kindness, that you might see it in turn. What WAS I thinking?

 

You're again making false statements. Jason did *NOT* instigate the fight with Dick one year later. Read the issue again. Did he have a right to be upset at Jason adopting the identity? Sure. He had the proper motivation but that doesn't change the facts. Jason was willing to compromise which wasn't good enough for Dick. As for Jason not respecting Dick, you're again adding things into Bruce Jones' script which are not there.

Are you serious? Yeah, I'm sure Jason really thought that Dick was going to agree with his philosophy and jump at the chance to be his sidekick. He's crazy, not stupid. Again, Jason may have adopted the identity simply because it was there (although I think that's debatable). However, the fact that he tried to keep it when Dick showed up shows a lack of respect and a desire for conflict.

 

As for not 'adding things'... yes, I'm looking at the whole of the character, not the exact words on the page. That's the point of having characters. I find it ironic that you talk to me about motivations, then tell me I need to quit adding things- especially since the things I add are no less a part of the character than the motivations.

 

Dick is rusty and out of shape one year later while Jason is not. Therefore, Todd is better. That has nothing whatsoever to do with respect though. I can believe that Jason might look up to Dick more than any other superhero but I admit that's only a possibility. As for your belief that Jason isn't doing too well, I guess you'd rather see that little girl kidnapped or dead.

Jason repeatedly telling Dick that he's better shows a lack of respect. Jason has made it clear, both in actions and words, that he thinks Batman and his 'family' are pretty pathetic.

 

As for the little girl... are you seriously using a plot device as a defense of the character and his usage? Hmm, interesting. Anyway, the fact is that Jason Todd thinks he's a hero. You know, like Superboy Prime, only not slaughtering Teen Titans while he claims it. As a hero, Todd would be remiss in not trying to save an innocent person, now wouldn't he?

 

That's not true. The first One Year Later solicitation came out at the same time as Infinite Crisis #6. You're again acting as though you know behind the scenes details which the public isn't privy too.

Okay, so the first OYL solicitation came out when IC #6 did? Brilliant! You just proved my point! This means the changes to IC #6 occurred BEFORE the solicit, as I claimed, and since Nightwing was never solicited as anything other than the "two Nightwings" blurb, that means that there was indeed time and choice involved. It's not like there was already a solicit that said "who's the new Nightwing?" Even if there was, Jones didn't have to stay in that format. I honestly don't see where you think that this story was the only one available to the creative team.

 

Dan Didio has already explained that keeping Dick alive was a last minute decision. More information should be available in next week's Wizard: The Comics Magazine #178 and the upcoming Hardcover edition of Infinite Crisis. If you don't want to believe the man, that's your business. I've already provided reasons supporting why Jason was probably the sole protagonist in Bruce's first draft for issue 118 and I don't feel like repeating them.

Hang on, I'm looking for the part where I don't believe Nightwing was going to die. Hold on, I'm sure it's here somewhere... no, I guess it isn't. I wonder why that is?

 

Personally, my interest in Judd's Batman title skyrocketed when Jason was revealed to be the Red Hood. If he was brought back as a child still wearing the Robin outfit, I wouldn't have been as enthusiastic. In my opinion, it's still too early to say whether his return is helpful or harmful long term to the Batman franchise.

I totally agree. I never said I'm not giving it a chance. In fact, my entire complaint is that I want Todd's resurrection to mean something, and I don't think that it has yet.

 

But hey, don't beleive me. Don't view my opinions as valid. Don't look at the dropping sales on Nightwing. Don't read the Wizard article where they praise every OYL title EXCEPT Nightwing (which they actually bash at least twice). Continue to defend sub-par writing and bad storytelling. It's all good.

 

Anyways, I'm bored of this conversation and have no desire to reply to you anymore. Saying you're biased is a huge understatement. Hating Jason is fine but intentionally distorting his dialogue to make him appear psychotic is pointless to me.

...zuh? He IS psychotic. Winick has gone on record as saying that he sees Todd as DC's version of the Punisher. No one will ever claim sanity for that character! This is aside from the fact that the guy was clinically dead, came back to life through a cosmic mishap, took a dip in a chemical bath known to induce insanity, wore the disguise of a criminal, beat both his predecessor and successor half to death, and has proceeded to kill at least a dozen people. How all of this adds up to the model of mental health for you is something I need explained.

 

And, as I've already stated, I don't feel that looking at the motivations, personality, and desires of a character is a distortion of their words. Looking beyond the words is, in fact, the point of a character.

 

@hmmm@

 

I honestly don't mean this is as a jab but have you read the end of Nightwing #118 a second time since you bought it? At first, I couldn't keep track of who was who either since the panels are quite small and Joe Dodd & Bit don't add a ton of detail to their pages. However, I kept reading the dialogue over and over again until it was clear which Nightwing and Pierce Brother was which in each scene. You may think it's out of character for Dick to be the one to start a fight with Jason but that's how it happened.

Quotes weren't working for me (I think I had too many of them or something) and I didn't want to put up a post that looked like garbage, yet lacked the ability to delete it. I figured a frustrated smiley was a decent compromise while i tried ot get the kinks out of what I really wanted to post. :)

 

As far as reading the issue again goes... As you can see by the lengthy post, I don't disagree at all about who started what. Where we seem to disagree is why the conflict (between Jason and Dick) is still occurring, and who's at fault for that.

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But I do think that any human (just human) that is put up against NW. NW would win

 

Oh well you didnt say just human. But personally, i think Captain America would beat Nightwing, but thats arguable. I thought you meant Nightwing was THE 2nd best OF ALL THE CHARACTERS IN COMICS, EVER. Because the basic attributes of a good fighter are strength, speed, stamina, flexability, strategy, and endurance, as well as mental preparadness. And if someone outclasses Nightwing DRAMATICALLY in some of those fields, they will defeat him, so thats why Nightwing isint THE 2nd best of ALL. For example, Mr Majestic outclasses Nightwing in all of those categories. Surely you dont believe that Nightwing is a better fighter than Majestic..do you?

 

I dont mean to be rude if i sound so, i just wanna know if you understand what im getting at.

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OK i sooo want to say things that would be un MOD like, but i am not...

 

 

Omega...i did not take any side in the orignal PM you sent me to look into this thread between you and Snake. But you are bold enough to type against me so here is what i am gonna do, im going to go back and delete all post that have nothing to do with the topic, all bickering and BS will be stricken from this thread! This is a great post and was taken to hell because of IGNORANCE by a few people.

 

 

This is the INTERNET, if you dont like what people are saying then here are your choices,

 

1. Make a firm point, have facts, and be able to take it if you are proven wrong

2. if you have thin skin then dont post

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES BELEIFS! NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FACTS ARE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BELEIVE WHAT THEY WANT TOO. THE SOONER EVERYONE REALIZES THAT THE EASIER IT WILL BE TO READ AND POST IN AN OPEN FORUM!

 

DCFAN- I'll have to look into your question a little.

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OK i sooo want to say things that would be un MOD like, but i am not...

 

 

Omega...i did not take any side in the orignal PM you sent me to look into this thread between you and Snake. But you are bold enough to type against me so here is what i am gonna do, im going to go back and delete all post that have nothing to do with the topic, all bickering and BS will be stricken from this thread! This is a great post and was taken to hell because of IGNORANCE by a few people.

 

 

This is the INTERNET, if you dont like what people are saying then here are your choices,

 

1. Make a firm point, have facts, and be able to take it if you are proven wrong

2. if you have thin skin then dont post

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES BELEIFS! NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FACTS ARE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BELEIVE WHAT THEY WANT TOO. THE SOONER EVERYONE REALIZES THAT THE EASIER IT WILL BE TO READ AND POST IN AN OPEN FORUM!

 

DCFAN- I'll have to look into your question a little.

 

I know. That was precisely the problem. You just said me and Snakeplissken were both equally to blame for the incident which is absurd. Yes, I am bold enough to raise a fuss when I'm being treated unfairly. It's not my fault he's a liar and you chose to give him more credit than he deserves. I still don't follow how you got confused. I attempted to correct him in a less abrasive way but it was having no effect. He stubbornly kept insisting that I said something which I did not so naturally I got angry. I shouldn't need to remain silent when someone is shoving words down my throat.

 

Your recommendations are logical but oversimplify things. I don't believe I've deviated from those guidelines at all. Let's say person A claims Perry White can benchpress more weight than Superman. Person B next submits an example which proves he definitely can't and this causes person A to say person B is a moron lacking a brain. Is person B supposed to abandon the thread just because person A is being a jerk? I don't think so. Moderators exist for that purpose.

 

Certain things are open to interpretation while others are not. When you can count on moderators to erase unprovoked insults directed at you, there's no need to retaliate but moderators who just blame both parties for a situation accomplish nothing. That's the approach lazy parents take to resolving a dispute. You haven't stricken all the BS from this thread. You've just randomly erased the stuff from today leaving yesterday's bickering perfectly intact. How is that a solution?

 

As far as I can tell, there's no the deterrent to being rude at this forum. If you cross the line like Chug and Magic 8 ball, you get your posts edited. That's just as ineffective at ending the problem as cops catching a burglar, returning the stolen money, and letting him go. :huh:

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OK i sooo want to say things that would be un MOD like, but i am not...

 

 

Omega...i did not take any side in the orignal PM you sent me to look into this thread between you and Snake. But you are bold enough to type against me so here is what i am gonna do, im going to go back and delete all post that have nothing to do with the topic, all bickering and BS will be stricken from this thread! This is a great post and was taken to hell because of IGNORANCE by a few people.

 

 

This is the INTERNET, if you dont like what people are saying then here are your choices,

 

1. Make a firm point, have facts, and be able to take it if you are proven wrong

2. if you have thin skin then dont post

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES BELEIFS! NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FACTS ARE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BELEIVE WHAT THEY WANT TOO. THE SOONER EVERYONE REALIZES THAT THE EASIER IT WILL BE TO READ AND POST IN AN OPEN FORUM!

 

DCFAN- I'll have to look into your question a little.

 

I know. That was precisely the problem. You just said me and Snakeplissken were both equally to blame for the incident which is absurd. Yes, I am bold enough to raise a fuss when I'm being treated unfairly. It's not my fault he's a liar and you chose to give him more credit than he deserves. I still don't follow how you got confused. I attempted to correct him in a less abrasive way but it was having no effect. He stubbornly kept insisting that I said something which I did not so naturally I got angry. I shouldn't need to remain silent when someone is shoving words down my throat.

 

Your recommendations are logical but oversimplify things. I don't believe I've deviated from those guidelines at all. Let's say person A claims Perry White can benchpress more weight than Superman. Person B next submits an example which proves he definitely can't and this causes person A to say person B is a moron lacking a brain. Is person B supposed to abandon the thread just because person A is being a jerk? I don't think so. Moderators exist for that purpose.

 

Certain things are open to interpretation while others are not. When you can count on moderators to erase unprovoked insults directed at you, there's no need to retaliate but moderators who just blame both parties for a situation accomplish nothing. That's the approach lazy parents take to resolving a dispute. You haven't stricken all the BS from this thread. You've just randomly erased the stuff from today leaving yesterday's bickering perfectly intact. How is that a solution?

 

As far as I can tell, there's no the deterrent to being rude at this forum. If you cross the line like Chug and Magic 8 ball, you get your posts edited. That's just as ineffective at ending the problem as cops catching a burglar, returning the stolen money, and letting him go. :huh:

 

 

 

You both were you both at fault...i dont see Snake fighting the fact that his part was just as guilty as yours...How are you being treated unfairly? did you get a warning from me? NO Did i lock the thread? NO

 

 

You just proved my point of Ignorance...If person A is being a Jerk then why stoop to thier level! why is it so hard to live and let live...remember this is the internet not a boxing ring.

 

 

Mods shouldnt have to babysit mature conversations, if someone says something you dont like who cares, let it slide unless its a DIRECT ATTACK to you, then get a MOD involved.

 

Someone calling you a moron shouldnt be a red alert code. Someone harrassing your nationality, race, sexual oreintation, etc is.

 

I saw nothing in the threads that warranted close to a dozen PMs...as far as what i deleted i told you in one of your many PMs that I AM AT WORK!!!! I check on here when i can for what ever limited time i do have to be here while im at work!

 

It doesnt bother me that you dont like me nonabrasive approach to how i handled this situation...it is your opinion to like it or not....i felt it was the most fair way...but the way you are handling yourself now tells me that the only verdict you wanted to hear was me pointing blame on Snake. So again i'll say that, Both of you were wrong and that is my verdict!

 

on a side note im sorry for all the DC fans that want to talk about this topic and are interrupted by this!

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OK i sooo want to say things that would be un MOD like, but i am not...

 

 

Omega...i did not take any side in the orignal PM you sent me to look into this thread between you and Snake. But you are bold enough to type against me so here is what i am gonna do, im going to go back and delete all post that have nothing to do with the topic, all bickering and BS will be stricken from this thread! This is a great post and was taken to hell because of IGNORANCE by a few people.

 

 

This is the INTERNET, if you dont like what people are saying then here are your choices,

 

1. Make a firm point, have facts, and be able to take it if you are proven wrong

2. if you have thin skin then dont post

3. YOU CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES BELEIFS! NO MATTER HOW STRONG THE FACTS ARE PEOPLE ARE GONNA BELEIVE WHAT THEY WANT TOO. THE SOONER EVERYONE REALIZES THAT THE EASIER IT WILL BE TO READ AND POST IN AN OPEN FORUM!

 

DCFAN- I'll have to look into your question a little.

 

I know. That was precisely the problem. You just said me and Snakeplissken were both equally to blame for the incident which is absurd. Yes, I am bold enough to raise a fuss when I'm being treated unfairly. It's not my fault he's a liar and you chose to give him more credit than he deserves. I still don't follow how you got confused. I attempted to correct him in a less abrasive way but it was having no effect. He stubbornly kept insisting that I said something which I did not so naturally I got angry. I shouldn't need to remain silent when someone is shoving words down my throat.

 

Your recommendations are logical but oversimplify things. I don't believe I've deviated from those guidelines at all. Let's say person A claims Perry White can benchpress more weight than Superman. Person B next submits an example which proves he definitely can't and this causes person A to say person B is a moron lacking a brain. Is person B supposed to abandon the thread just because person A is being a jerk? I don't think so. Moderators exist for that purpose.

 

Certain things are open to interpretation while others are not. When you can count on moderators to erase unprovoked insults directed at you, there's no need to retaliate but moderators who just blame both parties for a situation accomplish nothing. That's the approach lazy parents take to resolving a dispute. You haven't stricken all the BS from this thread. You've just randomly erased the stuff from today leaving yesterday's bickering perfectly intact. How is that a solution?

 

As far as I can tell, there's no the deterrent to being rude at this forum. If you cross the line like Chug and Magic 8 ball, you get your posts edited. That's just as ineffective at ending the problem as cops catching a burglar, returning the stolen money, and letting him go. :huh:

 

 

 

You both were you both at fault...i dont see Snake fighting the fact that his part was just as guilty as yours...How are you being treated unfairly? did you get a warning from me? NO Did i lock the thread? NO

 

 

You just proved my point of Ignorance...If person A is being a Jerk then why stoop to thier level! why is it so hard to live and let live...remember this is the internet not a boxing ring.

 

 

Mods shouldnt have to babysit mature conversations, if someone says something you dont like who cares, let it slide unless its a DIRECT ATTACK to you, then get a MOD involved.

 

Someone calling you a moron shouldnt be a red alert code. Someone harrassing your nationality, race, sexual oreintation, etc is.

 

I saw nothing in the threads that warranted close to a dozen PMs...as far as what i deleted i told you in one of your many PMs that I AM AT WORK!!!! I check on here when i can for what ever limited time i do have to be here while im at work!

 

It doesnt bother me that you dont like me nonabrasive approach to how i handled this situation...it is your opinion to like it or not....i felt it was the most fair way...but the way you are handling yourself now tells me that the only verdict you wanted to hear was me pointing blame on Snake. So again i'll say that, Both of you were wrong and that is my verdict!

 

on a side note im sorry for all the DC fans that want to talk about this topic and are interrupted by this!

 

You're wrong. I was not at fault which is exactly how I'm being treated unfairly. Snakeplissken isn't debating that he's half to blame because deep down he knows he got off easy. He deserved the full blame for instigating that fight.

 

What point has been proven with my example? I don't want to act like a wimpy pushover. You can live your life that way if you want but it seems pathetic to me. If someone walks up to you and kicks you in the crotch, do you just ignore that too? How can you be a Batman fan considering he and 95+% of superheroes stoop to the level of villains?

 

I completely disagree that harassment needs to fit into a handful of categories to be serious enough to warrant contacting a moderator. How is being labelled a moronic (fill in the blank gender/race/sexual orientation) any worse than being called a plain moron?

 

I have no way of knowing your work schedule or who reported messages are sent to but it is hilarious to see a moderator complain that he's being asked to do his job. You can say I'm partially to blame until you're blue in the face but that won't make it the least bit true. It's funny to imagine you as a cop reporting to a break in. Let's say an intruder entered a household. An old lady inside manges to creep up behind him with a baseball bat, swings, and knock him unconscious. I guess you think they're both to blame as well. Luckily, the law disagrees with you. The old lady is innocent. Your verdicts are lethargic and lacking any semblance of justice.

 

We're not discussing simple opinions here. You keep repeating that we should all agree to disagree which is always wise advice but it doesn't apply to this situation at all. All of your assumptions about me couldn't be further from the truth.

 

I absolutely can take it when people disagree with me. I welcome a new perspective and some people contribute very enlightening stuff at the DC forum. In fact, I was enjoying the conversation with Magic 8 Ball at first. I'm much more interested to learn an alternative point of view regarding Jason Todd than someone agreeing with me.

 

However, everyone at this forum who hates Jason being resurrected attempts to ridicule the story and they distort all the facts involved. If someone believes that Jason (who was already alive prior to entering a Lazarus pit) was brought back to life by a Lazarus pit, I think they fully deserve the "idiot" label.

 

I rarely resort to that right off the bat though. When I politely say their memory is playing tricks on them or they haven't read the issues closely enough, people like Magic 8 Ball react horribly offended and proceed to include little jabs at my expense in their replies from then on. At that point, I can either trust a moderator to promptly delete the post and reprimand the person or I can take matters into my own hands and show as little respect to them as they've shown to me. Since your response time is so slow and you refuse to side with anyone ever, the latter is the only option.

 

If a total stranger hypothetically accuses you of being a Nazi in public tomorrow, you don't need to agree with their inflammatory suggestion. It's not your fault that a troll is making you look bad and you have every right to defend your integrity. Evidently, you disagree and demand that your fellow board members turn the other cheek.

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Ok Omega! You are right...ok i said it...im done arguing this situation...everyone who posted in this thread is wrong...and you my friend are totally 100% right!

 

 

im a horrible MOD who complains about my job! you got that right as well! JayC should take away my MOD abilities and give them to you because you will be a much fairer judge here!

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You're wrong. I was not at fault which is exactly how I'm being treated unfairly. Snakeplissken isn't debating that he's half to blame because deep down he knows he got off easy. He deserved the full blame for instigating that fight.

Okay, I tried to stay out of this. But this statement is just a blatent falsehood. Snake was polite, honest, and confused about continuity. YOU started the fight by calling him a 'pathetic liar' because of his honest misunderstanding, and his interpretation of the word 'adult' as 'old'. He then asked you to calm down, to which you called him more names. It was at this point that he began to defend himself.

 

Those posts are perfectly intact and can be found on page 2. I'm sure you will attempt to mount a defense in which you are a victim and are completely innocent, but I have no doubts you're the only one who could see it that way.

 

I completely disagree that harassment needs to fit into a handful of categories to be serious enough to warrant contacting a moderator. How is being labelled a moronic (fill in the blank gender/race/sexual orientation) any worse than being called a plain moron?

I'd again like to point out that if calling someone a moron was an offense worthy of contacting a mod, Snake should have done so first. He was called a 'pathetic liar' over simple misunderstanding, then called a 'lying piece of trash' and 'stupid' when he didn't understand your furious reaction to his confusion. It was after this that he called you names.

 

You can say I'm partially to blame until you're blue in the face but that won't make it the least bit true.

You're absolutely right. You're 100% to blame.

 

However, everyone at this forum who hates Jason being resurrected attempts to ridicule the story and they distort all the facts involved. If someone believes that Jason (who was already alive prior to entering a Lazarus pit) was brought back to life by a Lazarus pit, I think they fully deserve the "idiot" label.

Because you know, it's not like it would be polite to point out that they might not have read a crucial part of the story. I've tried to point out to you that comics are confusing, and not everyone can keep up. You obviously do, which I actually see as an outstanding accomplishment. However, calling people idiots for not having the same time and energy to devote to the hobby as you do, and not understanding things as a result, just isn't the way to handle things.

 

I rarely resort to that right off the bat though. When I politely say their memory is playing tricks on them or they haven't read the issues closely enough, people like Magic 8 Ball react horribly offended and proceed to include little jabs at my expense in their replies from then on.

You told me I was blaming Bruce Jones because I couldn't remember/understand his story. As I tried to explain to you, this brings into question not just my memory, but my very character. The 'jabs' at you were observations of your character, which I might add you've denied, generally by displaying the behavior I accused you of.

 

If a total stranger hypothetically accuses you of being a Nazi in public tomorrow, you don't need to agree with their inflammatory suggestion. It's not your fault that a troll is making you look bad and you have every right to defend your integrity.

Integrity? How is integrity involved in calling someone an idiot for not knowing as much as you do? That's exactly the behavior you defend above. I think while you're looking that up, you should check out what 'troll' means as far as the internet is concerned, since you're using that incorrectly as well.

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Wow! What an entertaining thread. I read Hush and the issue where the Red Hood is revealed to be Jason Todd, so my knowledge of his resurrection ends there. I just want to say one thing to OmegaHarbinger: You come off like a Saturday Night Live version of a know-it-all fanboy that can't get through one day without getting picked on (that's if he goes outside). I get this picture of Horatio Sanz clutching his new, backboarded comics in one hand and giant Big Gulp in the other. You probably don't fit this description, but that's what you sound like.

 

I know that you hate recommendations, but you could really benefit from reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People". It might help you learn some tact.

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