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Why no X3 toys?


yojoebro82

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So??? There's no rule that says they can't start working on the figs until filming starts. Pre-production started before the filming in August. You think they had no idea what charcters were to be in the film or how they would look until the first day they picked up a camera in August?? Besides that, nobody ever said the figures for a movie that was due out the end of May would need to come out in December like the XMC line did. You sound like a ToyBiz rep w/ these flimbsy excuses....

 

They're only "flimbsy" to you. @smilepunch@

 

Anyway, alot of X-3 was not planned out far in advance. Look at the changeup in directors just a mere couple weeks before filming began. It's up to the studio on how much access the toy companies get. That was partly the reason why Doc Ock was delayed into the latter Spider-man series - because they didn't have access to his design until later in the design process. And toy companies prefer to grab peg space from retailers as early on as they can. Spider-man and Fantastic Four figrues all showed up in stores well before the movie. After Christmas is one of the key change around periods in stores, so having a product ready to go secures that space for you.

 

If they waited until they had the character designs, X-3 figures would be coming out around August.

 

 

LOL, if you say so. Everyone else in the thread seems to be on the ball enough to realize ToyBiz didn't do it because the first 2 movies lines tanked and they weren't going to waste their time/money a third time, especially when the franchise was so up in the air (ie nobody thinks Ratner can pull off a movie of this size). But if you want to keep believing that they simply didn't have enough time because that is what they told you, that is fine by me. At least you corrected my spelling error so your last post wasn't a total waste....

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LOL, if you say so. Everyone else in the thread seems to be on the ball enough to realize ToyBiz didn't do it because the first 2 movies lines tanked and they weren't going to waste their time/money a third time, especially when the franchise was so up in the air (ie nobody thinks Ratner can pull off a movie of this size). But if you want to keep believing that they simply didn't have enough time because that is what they told you, that is fine by me. At least you corrected my spelling error so your last post wasn't a total waste....

 

Everyone else is just speculating on the reason. I happen to understand the time needed to produce a toy line, so I'm not just going by what they told me. Keep going with the speculation if you want. I'll stick with the facts.

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LOL, if you say so. Everyone else in the thread seems to be on the ball enough to realize ToyBiz didn't do it because the first 2 movies lines tanked and they weren't going to waste their time/money a third time, especially when the franchise was so up in the air (ie nobody thinks Ratner can pull off a movie of this size). But if you want to keep believing that they simply didn't have enough time because that is what they told you, that is fine by me. At least you corrected my spelling error so your last post wasn't a total waste....

 

Everyone else is just speculating on the reason. I happen to understand the time needed to produce a toy line, so I'm not just going by what they told me. Keep going with the speculation if you want. I'll stick with the facts.

 

 

 

Wow, I am so very impressed. Question: Do you work for ToyBiz?

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Wow, I am so very impressed. Question: Do you work for ToyBiz?

 

Nope, just an informed fan.

 

 

Didn't think so. That renders your opinion just as valid as anyone else's, "industry knowledge" or not.

 

This is the offfical eplanation

 

http://toynewsi.com/news.php?catid=23&itemid=8881

 

 

Yes, everyone's seen that and know's that is ToyBiz's "official" stance on the subject. That doesn't mean it's the real reason. Bush did numerous press conferences prior to and during the Iraq invasion talking about weapons of mass destruction, but we all know the real reason on that one, too, don't we.... #US1#

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I don't know what everyone is upset about really. It's not like they would have made kitty or a bunch of the new characters anyway. I'm not going to cry over the shelves being swarmed by a dozen different wolverine variations like last time.

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Which is why the figures tanked last time. Nobody wanted to buy just about nothing but Wolverine and Cyclops variations. Not even any villains until the virtually non-exsistant at retail Magneto from series 2. As good as a job as Toybiz does with ML, I don't know that they've ever been able to figure out the right approach to movie lines. What is so hard to grasp about the fact that kids like diversity in the lines as much as collectors?

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Okay, for those doubters out there who just insist on being negative, let me explain a couple of things about licensed Toy manufacturing (and yes I HAVE worked in the field and do continue to workin in licensed manufacturing AS WELL as have talked with personnel at ToyBiz/Marvel OUTSIDE of a press situation).

 

An action figure of ANY licensed product goes through SEVERAL stages before you see it on your shelf, all of which together take around 18 months to complete (if everything goes smoothly).

 

1. Control Art is created: Artists are approached to creat 2D line art that represents the version of the character that is to be turned into a figure. In ML comic based, they approach comic artists and tell them the "era" they want or they give them the "type" of feel they want (like Ultron - new interpretation of an old character to make him "cooler") This goes through SEVERAL revisions before they finalize the 2D version. In the case of movies, they have to physically cast the actors, establish a costume, scan the actors in body suits, scan the actors in costume, all AFTER the actual actor/costume has been decided on. In the case of X3, since it went through 3 directors hands and then had less than a year to be made once the cast & director were decided on, they didn't even know who was REALLY going to be in it or what the costumes would look like, so they couldn't even really do concept art.

 

2. After the concept art, 3D prototypes are made: These are usually non-articulated 2 ups that are made to get the visual aspects of the 3D representations down and to find where there may be problems with adding articulation. Some sculptors have started sculpting on articulated armitures but a lot of them are still doing non-articulated sculpts to create the "ideal" look first. As the sculpts are made, they go back and forth with the licensing group, Marvel, until they get the character the way they want it. In the case of movies, it has to go to Marvel, then the studio, then the actor, then back and it NEVER is done in one trip. The actor has final approval over their likeness. Laser scanning has improved this process but it is still time consuming.

 

3: Color Prototype is made: The 3D prototype is painted and sent around for approval. All the previous rounds are done again with a colored version of the sculpt.

 

4: Engineering: The figure is then taken into the system and articulation is added. If the articulation was done during sculpting then it is fine tuned and engineered to make it mass produceable. The sculpt is reduced to production sizes and Test molds are made to do strike off, non-colored "test-shots" to see if there are any problems with the smaller versions. These "test-shots" are sent around for likeness approval to all of the same people as before (again, if ANYONE in these chains disapproves, changes have to be made to correct them)

 

5. Color Test-shots: Once the mold refinement is done, the painting tests are done and sent around for approval. Once this is done, final paint templates have to be created so the assebly folks can make them as close to the same as possible.

 

5a. Final proofs are shown to vendors and they choose if they want to carry the line or not and place orders. These orders determine the volume the line is run in at manufacturing.

 

6. Manufacturing: Once ALL the previous steps have been complete, final molds & paint masks are produced, plastic grade & color is chosen (another several rounds of approval) and strike-0ffs are made for final approval. If ANY problems are found in the final production molds, they must be scrapped and remade (not cheap or quick). If all is well on the strike-offs, the assembly lines are fired up and figures are made. Parts are run, sent throught to be hand painted, assembled, packaged and sorted. Once ALL the figures are made they are set up in the cases based on vendors orders.

 

7. Shipping: ToyBiz is FOB, which means they make the figures and the vendors are responsible for picking them up IN CHINA and bringing them back overseas to the US (or your favorite country). This us usually done by freight on boats and takes nearly 2 months to come across and get through customs. THEN, those vendors have to distribute the figures to their individual stores which can take as much as 3 months.

 

8. You get all hot and sweaty waiting, anticipating, bitching, chasing until you finally find the figures at your local Ultra-Toy-Mart. Only to start the hunt, waiting, bitching, chasing all over again once the euphoria wears off over you finding it.

 

 

All of the above steps are even more simplified than the actual processes but it gives you a rough idea of how licensed manufacturing works. Now multiply all of those steps by the number of figures in a line and in the case of movies, the number of egos involved and you can see why a line takes 18 months to 2 years to produce. With X1 & X2 they had the time and the characters and costumes didn't change much because the director was the same. With a change in Director in X3, no one knew if he would keep the same look or go completely different. By the time it was discovered it would look about the same, there just wasn't time to go through all the needed steps to put out a true X3 line. The only actors they had ready were wolverine and cyclops, all the rest would require all the above steps. They found a compromise, vendors wanted SOME kind of promo toy tie-in so they made a line of figures that they could produce quickly with characters from the movie. It also let them get sculpts out of characters they couldn't use because XMC got cancelled and get some Ultimate figures out people have been asking for. You'll see X3 figures in Legends, like the article said. Probably not the cyclops & wolvies (thanks to Hugh Jackman's insistance on higher "likeness fees" this time around) but more like Juggy, Kitty, Iceman, Jean (the characters you really want).

 

Hope this helps folks understand it's not just hogwash. They made the new X-men line because vendors ASKED where the X3 toys were. They wouldn't miss an opportunity to capitalize on a 2hour commercial on purpose.

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Everything Glaken said still doesn't change the fact that the figures they made are horrible. Comic accurate stuff would've served the movie tie-in purpose just as well as the power ranger looking crap we got in the first 2 waves.

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Glaken presented a well-thought out and easy to understand overview of the whole process. Thank you, there was a lot in there that I was not aware of. However, it does not change my opinion on the subject here. IMO, if anyone thinks that the fact that the first 2 movie lines completely tanked did not factor into no true movie line for this 3rd movie, I think they are kidding themselves.

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Trust me, the performance of the previous lines really DIDN'T factor into the reason they didn't make a true X3 line, it was the time issue. Now, as for why this line turned out like it did, I can't really say anything. They treated it like all the movie lines, geared towards kids with action features as a focus. This was sold to vendors as an X3 tie for Kids and was intended to be just that, a kids line. They used it as an opportunity to put out figures that don't really merit a "Legends" treatment, like HOM wolvie, Ultimate Nightcrawler, Ultimate Sabretooth, Pyro, etc... and to re-release figures like Phoenix & a "corrected" storm . It's not going any further than 3 series. They are purely a place holder to provide retailers with product to fill the void of no true X3 line. Like I said, a combination of factors from the lack of time in completing the figures to negotiating with individual agents to get the rights finalized to produce actor accurate likenessess are what slowed them down, NOT the sales of the previous lines. Actually, even though there were lots of "peg warmers" from both, there were a lot more than sold than hung on the pegs. Retailers & manufacturers factor certain amounts of "overage" in the costs of product and factor their and a products "success" is based on what percentage of the overall production run is sold more so than the total number of pieces. I promise, in both cases, the total number sold of the line was MORE than appropriate for a profitable product. The only line that has been a true "flop" was the Hulk line. That one was VERY poorly designed from the beginning and was a miserable seller and THAT is what killed the Hulk Classics line. Both X lines & both Spidey lines sold well according to retail standards. Fantastic Four did okay but not as well as they hoped (because the movie didn't do as well as they'd hoped).

 

Anyway, yes, the plan for now is to try and do figures based on the X3 costumes in the Legends figures and they are leaning towards the characters that haven't been done as super-articulated versions in the previous lines. Bobby (even though he's been made but not widely released) Juggy, Colossus, Kitty and Beast (don't remember if others are to be made too, but those names are the ones I remember). I don't think we'll see another cyke or wolvie cuz of the likeness fees and because they've been done so much in the previous series.

 

As collectors, what we determine is "successful" as a line and what vendors, retailers consider successful are 2 different things. We think a true "sellout" of product & large varieties of characters that perfectly represent the original material is a success. A retailer looks at a product line as being a success if it sells enough to profit, as in, did it sell enough at full price to profit so that it could be marked down to clear off over stock without losing money. If the line as a whole makes a profit, a few peg warmers don't worry them. Where they get mad is when they don't sell enough figures to make there investment back. I promise you, product doesn't go on clearance at any retailer until the price is recouped or the manufacturer has given the company "markdown" credit to allow them to sell out the product cheaper without losing money.

 

Sorry to bore you with retail economics, but I just wanted to TRY to clear up what IS ... IS. Being in manufacturing really gives you a whole different perspective on things than the average consumer.

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And again...

 

Everything Glaken said still doesn't change the fact that the figures they made are horrible. Comic accurate stuff would've served the movie tie-in purpose just as well as the power ranger looking crap we got in the first 2 waves.

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The thing that I really think was an excuse was this: "Jesse had also stated that the reason we were seeing these current X-Men figures, which are loosly based on various appearances of the characters from the comics, was to tide fans over. "

It doesn't make sense when the first two waves are full of made up costumes. I guess the reason they didn't make all comic accurate costumes was because not all of them would appeal to kids. But if they really wanted to feed the craving fans, they should have made it an entirely comic accurate line.

anyone else seeing cyclops and wolverine on pegs? I wish they would have made one of the two cyclops's good. but I guess we'd see an astonishing cyclops or jim lee cyclops with an action feature we'd complain about, since these are supposed to be fun for kids.

I think all the figures must be selling well in this line, though. When Wave 2 hit, I didn't see anymore Wave 1 figures, even Cyclops and Wolverine were gone.

there are more kids than x-men collectors so that's why they want to reach them so much, right?

 

I don't think they'd ever make as many figures as Star Wars has because the target audience is different. I'm a bigger Marvel fan than Star Wars and it amazes me how the fans want every little figure from every frame of the movies. But it's that willingness to keep on buying that makes Hasbro sales on these so well, and that makes them able to produce figures of such unimportant characters. Not to mention that the figures are smaller and have less articulation... and the demand for a massive army of storm/clone troopers.

 

This X-men line seems to be distributed really uneven in stores. They just made it to some Targets and the first time I saw them was at TRU. Fantastic Four--I think I remember seeing them around really early (before the movie), but I don't have a full account on it. This X-men line doesn't seem to be helping the movie, as opposed to the F4 line, which might have helped. But I'm all for comic accurate figures anyway and I don't think this movie will bomb.

 

oh yeah, I just finished reading Glaken's last post (I read the entire thread and decided to type my reply in before I read his long post) and it answered some of my questions...

 

They treated it like all the movie lines, geared towards kids with action features as a focus. This was sold to vendors as an X3 tie for Kids and was intended to be just that, a kids line. They used it as an opportunity to put out figures that don't really merit a "Legends" treatment, like HOM wolvie, Ultimate Nightcrawler, Ultimate Sabretooth, Pyro, etc... and to re-release figures like Phoenix & a "corrected" storm . It's not going any further than 3 series. They are purely a place holder to provide retailers with product to fill the void of no true X3 line.

 

I guess the reason they have some with funky costumes is because they kind of wanted to make the toys seem like they were from a movie. With words like "stealth," "tech gear," "ruby quartz," "bird of prey," and "ninja." And again, they want to target the kiddies, who have fun with the action features.

It saddens me that they only took the opportunity to make comic accurate figures in a non-Marvel Legends line, just because they couldn't make movie toys in time. That means they probably wouldn't have thought about making comic accurate figures, if they had more time for the movie ones.

I also wish that this line would continue, but I guess it would take the popularity away from the Marvel Legends line, which attracts many X-men fans. They only made X3 figures because retailers asked for them...

 

Actually, even though there were lots of "peg warmers" from both, there were a lot more than sold than hung on the pegs. Retailers & manufacturers factor certain amounts of "overage" in the costs of product and factor their and a products "success" is based on what percentage of the overall production run is sold more so than the total number of pieces. I promise, in both cases, the total number sold of the line was MORE than appropriate for a profitable product. The only line that has been a true "flop" was the Hulk line. That one was VERY poorly designed from the beginning and was a miserable seller and THAT is what killed the Hulk Classics line. Both X lines & both Spidey lines sold well according to retail standards. Fantastic Four did okay but not as well as they hoped (because the movie didn't do as well as they'd hoped).

 

This is another thing that I thought was a possibility. Even though there were pegwarmers, they must have sold a lot to want to continue the line in X2. Tieing it in with a movie not only makes fans buy it, but also someone else who was drawn in by the movie. So they must sell more than a line that goes without a movie.

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well considering the first wave was mostly wolvies and cyclopes they had to do something ... if they just redid everything with new accessorys all people would be doing now is baitching about that :P

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well considering the first wave was mostly wolvies and cyclopes they had to do something ... if they just redid everything with new accessorys all people would be doing now is baitching about that :P

 

well that's what they do with Star Wars...look at ROTS Yoda! :P

 

well, again different audience, I know.

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. Bush did numerous press conferences prior to and during the Iraq invasion talking about weapons of mass destruction, but we all know the real reason on that one, too, don't we.... #US1#

Why did you feel the need to throw that out? And do we? It's be proven even Sodom's top men thought they had them! Geeze wrong does not equal liar. I think bush is an idiot but not evil.

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Well, I think they didn't fill costume accurate figures into the x-men line is because... we already have costume accurate figures. Cyclops, Wolverine, Angel, Beast, Magneto... they've all had Marvel Legends. They don't want to clog the shelves with x-men figures... that are basically just marvel legends, because it takes away from what they can do in the future and what they've already done.

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