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Confirmed no mass shifting for TF movie


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As said by Roberto Orci, there will be no mass shifting, and I know this is rather old news. The problem is, we know that jets are about 4 times bigger than a car, that means that the seekers like Starscream will (and should) be 4 times bigger than any other motor vehicle autobot. We know that a jet is definitely and substantially bigger than a truck tractor, implying that Starscream will indeed mountain over Optimus Prime. A jet is even bigger than a tank, meaning that Starscream will be taller than Megatron.

 

Of course there are ways to design the transformation such that the seekers can hide/fold thier parts horizontallly instead of vertically, but generally, if we look back at the toys and the cartoon, they were far from being to scale, and if we try to visualize a comparison between a car and a jet to the exact scale, I think the comparison would be like Skyfire and Bumblebee in terms of size.

 

Hence, unless we are willing to accept the fact that any of the seekers (if they will appear in the movie), will be taller that even Optimus Prime and Megatron, thier appearance should be scraped.

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Weird, I wonder why they don't do mass-shifting, they could explain it away as alien technology, plus it will make the battle scenes a helluva lot better.

 

Well, having mass shifting will give rise to a set of new problems. Like for instance, why do the Decepticons need laserbeak if they can conveniently shrink into any size they want? Megatron can shrink to a size of a handgun, so why doesn't he just shrink to that size and sneak in to the Autobot headquarters? (Well, teletran-1 will detect him..duh) But generally, I think that not having mass shifting will leave less room of questionable ambiguities, like 'why don't the Decepticons shrink themselves and hide inside the Autobots bodies and mess them up?'...

 

According to what I managed to google up, an F-15 jet is approximately 63.8 ft in length, that's about 20 meters, and a car is merely 4 meters in length at most. The width of the F-15 is 42.8 ft, which is 13 meters, and the width of a car is probably only 2 meters. So a jet is 5 times longer and 6 times broader in terms of its wingspan than a car. Can you imagine how big a seeker should be relative to a car?

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A more recent announcement by the writers (I think), or possibly Murphy, stated that there will be "limited mass shifting".

 

 

And I have to laugh when I read all those "That's great news!" replies from the fans.. they can accept that huge, alien robotic lifeforms can scan creatures/mechanical constructs on ANY PLANET THEY LAND ON, and instantaneously re-format their ENTIRE BODIES to transform into and mimic those scanned objects...

 

 

...but not that they have to shift mass to accomplish said transformations?

 

 

Oh, yes.. mass-shifting is -FAR- too unrealistic... @hmmm@

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remember that citroen commercial? where the car can drive around and work just perfectly and still transform into a cool looking robot..

 

that's what all the designs will most likely look like. And it's very easy to have panels folding up to cram in small area's. I see no reason for a tank and a jet to transform into similar size robots.. Don't think about how long or tall a vehicle is, but think of it's area density. There's hardly anything to a jet. That's if they even put jets in the movie. an F15 is about 60 feet long, a harrier jump jet is about 45 feet long, making it a reasonable choice to use for a transformer. 45 feet long doesn't mean 45 feet tall in robot mode if designed well.

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remember that citroen commercial? where the car can drive around and work just perfectly and still transform into a cool looking robot..

 

that's what all the designs will most likely look like. And it's very easy to have panels folding up to cram in small area's. I see no reason for a tank and a jet to transform into similar size robots.. Don't think about how long or tall a vehicle is, but think of it's area density. There's hardly anything to a jet. That's if they even put jets in the movie. an F15 is about 60 feet long, a harrier jump jet is about 45 feet long, making it a reasonable choice to use for a transformer. 45 feet long doesn't mean 45 feet tall in robot mode if designed well.

 

I knew someone would say that. But what the hell do you mean there is nothing to a jet? From an engineering perspective, I personally think that you can't scale down a jet to a standard motor sized robot. Of course you can fold it and cramp it as much as possible, but only in theory can it be possible to scale it down that much, in practice, I doubt it. Think about it, just the main body of an aircraft alone, excluding its wings and nose is so much bigger than a car. You can fold a little bit but not that much. Do you know that maybe the engine of the aircraft alone might be more than half the size of a car?

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a 63 foot tall F15 standing up right into a 25 foot tall robot (2 feet shorter then a semi truck in robot mode)

 

jet1.jpg

jet2.jpg

 

crappyjet2.jpg

crappyjet1.jpg

 

you have to use your imagination a bit, but it can easily be done.

 

I'll explain it a bit, teh engines obviously wouldn't stay in once piece as with any other part of the vehicle, this is alien technology we're talking about don't forget, and these are disguises, there's no real reaon for a seeker jet to keep its engine, if it can fly byitself anyways, it doesn't need the engines, it could easily leave those parts out if he wanted. but keeping the engines in the design, this is reall rough, but they are split into 8 pieces, 4 in the legs and 4 in the chest area.

 

The rear rudders become the robot large wings, nothing changes for them. the big wings for the plane fold up into the same size as the rear tail fins and they all hang off the back. the cockpit splits into two, the back half goes to the back inbetween the two big wings, the front to the front of the robot, and the glass part slides forward making it somewhat the same as the original design. The air intakes go on top to form shoulders, the rest of the jet folds up and splits into pieces to make the arms and likes like they would in the g1 design as well except for he has a lot larger shoulders now that stick up. the exhaus and rear of the plane becomes the legs, again, engine slipts up and folds into to smaller pieces. while engines are large, they are still for the most part hollow.

 

he's a little stumpy but it can definatly be done.. for an alien that is

 

oh and I kinda cheated and deleted the missles :P and I cut this jet up and put it back together in half an hour.. I can't wait to see what guys spending months on these designs have in store for us :D

Edited by Mike
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I'm sure due to Transformations that we'll see a change in size from mode to mode, I think what they are specifically referring to is "mass shifting" like Soundwave and Megatron.

 

Is it nostalgic? Yes. Does it make one bit of sense for a 2 story robot to turn into a human size tape recorder? Nope.

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I like the idea of "limited" mass shifting. Basically he's talking about stuff that wouldn't even be noticed (ie: Seekers) unless you went out and drew up some comparisons between trucks and jet fighters. Most people don't ever see the two side by side in real life, so there's no real frame of reference. Therefore, if done right, it could work in a movie.

 

However, everyone's seen a pistol or tape player in relation to a car, so it seems less realistic.

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A more recent announcement by the writers (I think), or possibly Murphy, stated that there will be "limited mass shifting".

 

 

And I have to laugh when I read all those "That's great news!" replies from the fans.. they can accept that huge, alien robotic lifeforms can scan creatures/mechanical constructs on ANY PLANET THEY LAND ON, and instantaneously re-format their ENTIRE BODIES to transform into and mimic those scanned objects...

 

 

...but not that they have to shift mass to accomplish said transformations?

 

 

Oh, yes.. mass-shifting is -FAR- too unrealistic... @hmmm@

I remember reading the same thing from the murphy boards about "limited mass shifting"

 

thats good though. things wouldnt look right without a little change in size

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45 feet long doesn't mean 45 feet tall in robot mode if designed well.

 

@loll@ @loll@ I don't know how well the design is, but something as big as aircraft carrier like Broadside is gigantic no matter which way you look at it in robot mode. An aircraft carrier is enormous. You can design all the schematics you want, he will still be taller than any Megatron or Prime. Sure Broadside will never make it to the movie, but for arguement sake. They're lucky that Megatron is no longer an UNCLE pistol, otherwise, I would love to see their theory on no mass shifting, like that's gonna work. @smilepunch@ @smilepunch@

 

Bah, I stick to the original TFTM.....OPEN DAMN IT, OPEN!!!!!!

Bah, I stick to Meggy as UNCLE Type, lol......

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I'm sure due to Transformations that we'll see a change in size from mode to mode, I think what they are specifically referring to is "mass shifting" like Soundwave and Megatron.

 

Is it nostalgic? Yes. Does it make one bit of sense for a 2 story robot to turn into a human size tape recorder? Nope.

To human understanding of technology and physics.

 

 

But, again, it's just as feasible (and believable) as a 15 - 30 alien robot to be able to scan any object on any planet they land on, and INSTANTANEOUSLY REFORMAT THEIR BODIES to mimic that object.

 

There is no reason, whatsoever, that we should be able to believe that and not that they can mass-shift/shunt mass into subspace/whatever.

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I'm sure due to Transformations that we'll see a change in size from mode to mode, I think what they are specifically referring to is "mass shifting" like Soundwave and Megatron.

 

Is it nostalgic? Yes. Does it make one bit of sense for a 2 story robot to turn into a human size tape recorder? Nope.

To human understanding of technology and physics.

 

 

But, again, it's just as feasible (and believable) as a 15 - 30 alien robot to be able to scan any object on any planet they land on, and INSTANTANEOUSLY REFORMAT THEIR BODIES to mimic that object.

 

There is no reason, whatsoever, that we should be able to believe that and not that they can mass-shift/shunt mass into subspace/whatever.

 

No, you're wrong. As good as your point is, instant mass-shifting on the scale of a Walther P-38 or Walkman would not be believable to most people. Transformers fans look the other way, but a mass-market blockbuster movie is going to have a much broader audience than just the TF fan base, and it's going to have to make audiences believe in the idea of transforming sentient robots from outer space. I think they can do that, but adding substantive mass-shifting to the mix, without it really being integral to the plot at all, adds an element to the story that most audiences would have a hard time believing. If you get too ridiculous and "out-there" with the story, it ruins the fantasy and the believability of the whole thing. Let's face it - mass-shifting was something we, as kids, were asking ourselves about during the G1 cartoon. If kids can figure out that plot hole (and yes, that's what it was), then how are we going to make adults (who aren't really TF fans) buy it?

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Also, who said that the jets had to actually be the size of real jets? They are more or less meant to be hidden in the sky, so that when people see them fly by they don't question the shape. The autobots directly interact with people in their alt modes, but I don't see that as a concern with the Seekers. They could be the same size as an F16 or whatever, but be just a little larger than a car, it would be fine.

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A more recent announcement by the writers (I think), or possibly Murphy, stated that there will be "limited mass shifting".

 

 

And I have to laugh when I read all those "That's great news!" replies from the fans.. they can accept that huge, alien robotic lifeforms can scan creatures/mechanical constructs on ANY PLANET THEY LAND ON, and instantaneously re-format their ENTIRE BODIES to transform into and mimic those scanned objects...

 

 

...but not that they have to shift mass to accomplish said transformations?

 

 

Oh, yes.. mass-shifting is -FAR- too unrealistic... @hmmm@

 

 

 

Yeah, that's like watching Ducktales and asking why Scrooge the Duck needs glasses, ducks don't need glasses, all the while forgetting that the damn ducks are walking around in clothes, driving cars, eating, etc.

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Also, when you have to go into this long-winded explanation of shifting mass into a pocket-dimension to be used later, it sounds like questionable fan-fic, a little cheesy, and it just adds complications we don't need. I mean, again, if they can shift mass around to pocket dimensions, why are they all huge and consume so much energy when they are in such a crisis? Besides, the mass-shift toys were from different lines anyway.

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A more recent announcement by the writers (I think), or possibly Murphy, stated that there will be "limited mass shifting".

 

 

And I have to laugh when I read all those "That's great news!" replies from the fans.. they can accept that huge, alien robotic lifeforms can scan creatures/mechanical constructs on ANY PLANET THEY LAND ON, and instantaneously re-format their ENTIRE BODIES to transform into and mimic those scanned objects...

 

 

...but not that they have to shift mass to accomplish said transformations?

 

 

Oh, yes.. mass-shifting is -FAR- too unrealistic... @hmmm@

 

 

 

Bingo. Well said.

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Let's face it - mass-shifting was something we, as kids, were asking ourselves about during the G1 cartoon. If kids can figure out that plot hole (and yes, that's what it was), then how are we going to make adults (who aren't really TF fans) buy it?

No, "we" were not. I never once bothered to think about it or question it because I, as a kid, knew full well it was a FANTASY WORLD, and simply accepted that bit right along with the idea of giant, sentient robots who could instantly scan an object and instantly reconfigure their entire physical structure to become that object.

 

How is being able to instantly scan and mimic an object or creature that is completely alien to you any different than being able to instantly shift parts of your mass to do so?

 

I fail to see the logic in your argument.

 

 

Further, the movie-going audience--regardless of who they are (longtime fan or complete newbie)--are not going to see a movie so they can sit and analyze any logical/scientific/etc inconsistencies might exist in either the premise or the presentation. They are going to see the movie to enjoy a fun adventure/romance/horror-slasher-terror story, where they aren't REQUIRED to think heavily about what's going on.

 

If you're busy over-analyzing what's happening on the screen, then you're missing the point of the thing entirely, and you should probably find more scholarly activities.

 

*shrug*

 

Also, when you have to go into this long-winded explanation of shifting mass into a pocket-dimension to be used later, it sounds like questionable fan-fic, a little cheesy, and it just adds complications we don't need. I mean, again, if they can shift mass around to pocket dimensions, why are they all huge and consume so much energy when they are in such a crisis? Besides, the mass-shift toys were from different lines anyway.

That's just it. They don't HAVE to go into ANY explanation of the hows or whys of their transformations or mass-shifting to accomplish it, anymore than they have to go into deep explanation of how they convert energon to power. They just do it.

 

Yes, they need to explain how and why the Transformers are on Earth, and possibly some backstory on why they're at war with each other. However, that is not the same. The audience actually -does- need to know that, they're likely to care.

 

Just jumping into it and never mentioning their -history- is the kind of thing that makes somebody stop and say, "WTF?"

 

Just doing the transformation on the fly, in the middle of the action (or even during a slow part, say, when they reveal themselves as robots in disguise to Spike for the first time), will hardly register with anyone but the hardcore, whiney nerds who go in determined to pick the thing apart for "impossibilities" and "scientific inaccuracies", and THEY aren't the core target audience, no matter how much they might want to believe otherwise.

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I think when they said no mass shifting, it might have meant "masive amounts of size shifting". ie: Decepticon commander into tiny handgun, or Decepticon second in command into tiiiny walkman.

 

A more recent announcement by the writers (I think), or possibly Murphy, stated that there will be "limited mass shifting".

 

 

And I have to laugh when I read all those "That's great news!" replies from the fans.. they can accept that huge, alien robotic lifeforms can scan creatures/mechanical constructs on ANY PLANET THEY LAND ON, and instantaneously re-format their ENTIRE BODIES to transform into and mimic those scanned objects...

 

 

...but not that they have to shift mass to accomplish said transformations?

 

 

Oh, yes.. mass-shifting is -FAR- too unrealistic... @hmmm@

 

 

 

Yeah, that's like watching Ducktales and asking why Scrooge the Duck needs glasses, ducks don't need glasses, all the while forgetting that the damn ducks are walking around in clothes, driving cars, eating, etc.

 

Isn't his name Scrooge McDuck? @smilepunch@

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No, "we" were not. I never once bothered to think about it or question it because I, as a kid, knew full well it was a FANTASY WORLD, and simply accepted that bit right along with the idea of giant, sentient robots who could instantly scan an object and instantly reconfigure their entire physical structure to become that object.

 

How is being able to instantly scan and mimic an object or creature that is completely alien to you any different than being able to instantly shift parts of your mass to do so?

 

I fail to see the logic in your argument.

 

 

Further, the movie-going audience--regardless of who they are (longtime fan or complete newbie)--are not going to see a movie so they can sit and analyze any logical/scientific/etc inconsistencies might exist in either the premise or the presentation. They are going to see the movie to enjoy a fun adventure/romance/horror-slasher-terror story, where they aren't REQUIRED to think heavily about what's going on.

 

If you're busy over-analyzing what's happening on the screen, then you're missing the point of the thing entirely, and you should probably find more scholarly activities.

 

*shrug*

 

Actually, as much you may not want to believe, many people, including me, watch movies and analyze the logical aspect of a movie at the same time. You can't have a movie that just focuses on the fantasy part and ignores whatever we have learned in school or college. That would be a B-grade movie. You know what's the problem about 'Hulk'? Eric Bana used his body to block or shield his girlfriend from a high intensity gamma radiation. You know what? Gamma ray is an electromagnetic wave, and it passes right through our body, even his girlfriend would have been exposed. If electromagnetic rays can be obstructed by our body, then nuclear radiation wouldn't be as harmful as it is now. So you see? they can't fool me. I have read about gamma radiation before and due to that, I thought the movie was stupid for trying to insult what I have learned.

 

Hence, the logical and scientific aspect of a movie does matter, to some people. I can say that I certainly wouldn't accept even a little mass-shifting without a thorough explanation or justification. And I would be outraged if they try to do it hoping I wouldn't realize it.

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No, "we" were not. I never once bothered to think about it or question it because I, as a kid, knew full well it was a FANTASY WORLD, and simply accepted that bit right along with the idea of giant, sentient robots who could instantly scan an object and instantly reconfigure their entire physical structure to become that object.

 

How is being able to instantly scan and mimic an object or creature that is completely alien to you any different than being able to instantly shift parts of your mass to do so?

 

I fail to see the logic in your argument.

 

 

Further, the movie-going audience--regardless of who they are (longtime fan or complete newbie)--are not going to see a movie so they can sit and analyze any logical/scientific/etc inconsistencies might exist in either the premise or the presentation. They are going to see the movie to enjoy a fun adventure/romance/horror-slasher-terror story, where they aren't REQUIRED to think heavily about what's going on.

 

If you're busy over-analyzing what's happening on the screen, then you're missing the point of the thing entirely, and you should probably find more scholarly activities.

 

*shrug*

 

Actually, as much you may not want to believe, many people, including me, watch movies and analyze the logical aspect of a movie at the same time. You can't have a movie that just focuses on the fantasy part and ignores whatever we have learned in school or college. That would be a B-grade movie. You know what's the problem about 'Hulk'? Eric Bana used his body to block or shield his girlfriend from a high intensity gamma radiation. You know what? Gamma ray is an electromagnetic wave, and it passes right through our body, even his girlfriend would have been exposed. If electromagnetic rays can be obstructed by our body, then nuclear radiation wouldn't be as harmful as it is now. So you see? they can't fool me. I have read about gamma radiation before and due to that, I thought the movie was stupid for trying to insult what I have learned.

 

Hence, the logical and scientific aspect of a movie does matter, to some people. I can say that I certainly wouldn't accept even a little mass-shifting without a thorough explanation or justification. And I would be outraged if they try to do it hoping I wouldn't realize it.

 

so you like transformers... why?

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Actually, as much you may not want to believe, many people, including me, watch movies and analyze the logical aspect of a movie at the same time. You can't have a movie that just focuses on the fantasy part and ignores whatever we have learned in school or college. That would be a B-grade movie. You know what's the problem about 'Hulk'? Eric Bana used his body to block or shield his girlfriend from a high intensity gamma radiation. You know what? Gamma ray is an electromagnetic wave, and it passes right through our body, even his girlfriend would have been exposed. If electromagnetic rays can be obstructed by our body, then nuclear radiation wouldn't be as harmful as it is now. So you see? they can't fool me. I have read about gamma radiation before and due to that, I thought the movie was stupid for trying to insult what I have learned.

 

Hence, the logical and scientific aspect of a movie does matter, to some people. I can say that I certainly wouldn't accept even a little mass-shifting without a thorough explanation or justification. And I would be outraged if they try to do it hoping I wouldn't realize it.

 

@hmmm@ @hmmm@ Seriously Rumble, if every movie has to have the logic and analysis, there wouldn't be any fun or real entertainment to that because we would all know the answer and how to obtain one.

And this is where fantasy and supernatural come into play because not everything can be solved through science or mathematic. I mean, if I were to watch the Return of Superman, am I going to ask the writer or the producer to show me every logical detail as to how on earth heat vision come out of Superman eye, or how Superman eye see like an Xray? What exactly does his body have that we don't have after all, he got a heart, lung, and breath like we do. Sure he's an alien, and so are TFs.

 

On to mass shifting, okay let take Mystic of the Xmen for example, she has the ability to change from one human to another human whether fat, skinny, or tall. How many of the audiences out there actually take their mind out of the movie and begin to ponder the logic and analysis whether there's any real formular in which this power can be real? Mystic of the Xmen power is very much similar to the Transformers except it uses a diffferent technical term that is, one is called Mass Shifting and the other is Metamorphosis (flesh creature).

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I think we're going to see some of the robots in different forms..

 

I don't think soundwave is going to be a tape recorder..

 

And I think if the seekers(or atleast starscream) aren't in the movie theres going to be some pist off people.

 

I was going to mention the same thing someone said about the seekers technically no needing their engines in jet mode..

 

They fly in bot mode anyways so he is dead on with that.

 

Plus you forgot when a car transforms you have pieces of legs that extend out and waiste pieces that extend out so they will be fairly taller than some people are thinking.

 

I think our best bet is to just wait and see. :)

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