Sigma Six Is Not Selling Well Is Store.

[gscbr]

Adults overthink things period!  I don't just mean the toy collectors either, I mean those that are in charge of trying to make their own niche' in the business of producing or marketing them.  THAT..is the actual business side of it, which boils down to some hot shot trying to make it in the business world, and a lot of times they're not even interested in the product itself, as it's just any ol' "product" and they treat it as such.  They've been educated in business...not so much G.I.Joe or what kids REALLY want.

 

We're assuming that these people, on the business end of toys, are all the equivalent of Willie Wonka to candy manufacturing.  There's not that many Walt Disneys or Mel Blancs around anymore, that have made a success out of what they really loved themselves.

 

Every other toy company out there, starts putting out larger scaled action figures, and any kids that still DO want to buy action figure toys, buy them NOT because they had a choice in the matter, but because that's all there was, and Hasbro has some genius come in and say "gee..kids must like the larger scaled figures now?" 

 

Some research that took!

 

Then of course, we have the fanbase that wants to perpetuate the big ol bully myth about Wal-Marts, and how THEY dictate to toy companies what to make and how to make it and package it, and then you have to wonder why hasbro should require a marketing team at all, since all they need is their instructions from Wal-Mart and make it so? 

 

If Wal-Mart demanded Hasbro to produce something along the lines of Sigma Six, then I'd think that all of the S6 fans should be singing their praises now and kissing WM's corporate butt.  Haven't heard a peep about it, but when Hasbro kept farting around with the 3 3/4" scale and doing things to it, us fans even thought was questionable and highly determental to the line...it was quickly passed off as "due to the whims of Wal-Mart". 

 

It frys the brain cells to even try and rationalize it all out, with all the "experts" trying to explain all that's going on, to us.

VH, I don't mean this as an attack so please don't take it as such, but your pessimistic view of marketing has very little basis in reality. again, do you think toy companies spend millions of dollars developing and producing a toy in a large scale because they want to force kids to play with larger scale toys, or do you think that maybe kids are telling toy companies they want larger scale toys so the toy companies are spending millions of dollars to tailor their products to the consumers? the toy company doesn't care what kids play with. they only care about producing toys that kids will play with. fact is, consumers dictate what companies produce, not the other way around. with the millions of dollars at stake in this business, nobody is simply saying you're going to take this toy and like it!

 

your stance that toy companies make decisions arbitrarily, like increasing the scale because that is what the toy companies wants, has no basis in reality of product development. it doesn't.

 

nobody at Hasbro said "Hey, what if we spend 10 million dollars developing an 8" anime Joe and see if the kids like it, and if not, oh well, we won't lose our jobs or be upset that we did a bad job because we don't take pride in the job we do. " instead it probably went more like a bunch of kids said they prefer a larger action figure with articulation, a lot of cool weapons, and a more stylistic look." so Hasbro gave them Sigma 6.

 

this isn't the case of an adult overthinking something, it is the case of someone who has a huge million dollar responsibility to his employer and his family trying to make the best decision possible to do the best job possible to provide his target audience (children) the best product possible based on what they want. if you think making a responsible and informed decision is overthinking, than I would rather overthink. only a fool throws millions of dollars without thinking about it.

[pogoman]

storm shadow sigma six looks decent. I may pick him up once it goes on sale.

[Snow_Serpent]

Then of course, we have the fanbase that wants to perpetuate the big ol bully myth about Wal-Marts, and how THEY dictate to toy companies what to make and how to make it and package it, and then you have to wonder why hasbro should require a marketing team at all, since all they need is their instructions from Wal-Mart and make it so?

 

VH, it's not a myth. Wal-Mart is the 800lb. gorilla in the room.

[gscbr]

Then of course, we have the fanbase that wants to perpetuate the big ol bully myth about Wal-Marts, and how THEY dictate to toy companies what to make and how to make it and package it, and then you have to wonder why hasbro should require a marketing team at all, since all they need is their instructions from Wal-Mart and make it so? 

 

VH, it's not a myth. Wal-Mart is the 800lb. gorilla in the room.

as per Hasbro's 2004 annual report and 10-K:

 

"During 2004, sales to our three largest customers, Wal Mart Stores, Inc., Toys 'R Us, Inc. and Target Corporation, represented 21%, 15% and 10%, respectively, of consolidated net revenues, and sales to our top five customers accounted for approximately 50% of our consolidated net revenues."

 

two things of importance to understand. Walmart, Toys R Us and Target are Hasbros main customers, not us (we are Wal Mart, TRU and Targets customers), and they account for nearly 50% percent of Hasbro's consolidated net revenues. and there is a huge difference between 21% and 15%, so it isn't crazy to think Wal Mart would have some influence on the product they carry, considering nearly 25% of Hasbro's consolidated net revenues depend on Wal Marts business.

 

but of course, nobody wants to understand the business side of business, they just want to live in a fantasy land where if you want something you get it without any financial repercussions to either the consumer or producer. I wish I lived in that world.

[ARROW]

but of course, nobody wants to understand the business side of business, they just want to live in a fantasy land where if you want something you get it without any financial repercussions to either the consumer or producer. I wish I lived in that world.

I lived in that world once.

 

They kicked me out.

 

 

Wanna see the bruise?

[Harry_Flashman]

but of course, nobody wants to understand the business side of business, they just want to live in a fantasy land where if you want something you get it without any financial repercussions to either the consumer or producer. I wish I lived in that world.

 

Wow. What a fun forum this has become.

 

Screw GI JOEs, let's talk business: Buy. Sell. Buy. Buy.

 

Okay, I'm done. It's no fun. I personally feel this is a forum for collectors and fans, not MBAs or marketing majors (if you have them skills, good for you --- but, uhhh, let's not spend a lot of time exploring that aspect of toys).

 

That said, bring on the customs!

[Fakeor]

hmm

 

 

I see a lot of people claiming they UNDERSTAND this, or they KNOW that, or they SEE it this way. This is not the first time this type of thing has come along. Bottom line, they cost a lot, there will be no large playsets/vehicles, and there will never be that many characters cranked out to make it work. Like it or not, after the newness/holidays come and go, they will realize its not going to work, and it will die. Maybe slowly, but IT WILL DIE. And if they toys go, so will the cartoon. The cartoon ONLY exsists to sell the toys, and when they go, so will the show. I give it 1 to 1 and 1/2 years. If you dont believe this, check what happened to He-Man.

 

FAKEOR

[Rama Sha]

Buisness men as a whole can't seem to see the forrest for the tress. Do they actually teach them to ingore the problem and come up with crazy out of left field solutions in buisness school?

 

 

Professor: If a line has become stagnet because of oversatiuartion of the market with certain figures, and unavailablity of others what would do you do?

 

Student 1: Cut down production on the figures that arn't moving, while increasing production on those that do?

 

Professor: You couldn't be more wrong, why do you even show up to class?

 

Student: Oh Contiune in the same production run but add stickers to the package.

 

Professor: Good....Anyone else.

 

Student: Take it a risky and unexpected direction that'll cost the company millions if fails?

 

Professor: Excellent.

 

Student: Try to scam the consumer into fixing your mistake while contiuning the same practives that got you into trouble in the first place?

 

Professor: Outstanding!

 

 

Supply and Demand is dead. It's been replaces with "You'll take what we give you and like it."

[EMB]

Buisness men as a whole can't seem to see the forrest for the tress. Do they actually teach them to ingore the problem and come up with crazy out of left field solutions in buisness school?

 

 

I defintely do not want to defend corporate America. It just isn't my thing. However, you do realize that there was a time when business men decided to shrink Gi Joe to the 3 3/4" scale, and I don't think any of us here can say that was a business mistake.

 

I see a lot of people claiming they UNDERSTAND this, or they KNOW that, or they SEE it this way. This is not the first time this type of thing has come along. Bottom line, they cost a lot, there will be no large playsets/vehicles, and there will never be that many characters cranked out to make it work. Like it or not, after the newness/holidays come and go, they will realize its not going to work, and it will die. Maybe slowly, but IT WILL DIE. And if they toys go, so will the cartoon. The cartoon ONLY exsists to sell the toys, and when they go, so will the show. I give it 1 to 1 and 1/2 years. If you dont believe this, check what happened to He-Man.

 

FAKEOR

 

 

I kinda agree here. I do believe that sigma six will be a success, but only for a short while. The He man comparison is very similar to what I have been thinking in regards to the design of S6. It is very styalized, and while cool, is very much tied into the time we live in. Sooner or later styles will change, and kids may want something that looks more realistic, or maybe even more cartoony. Either way, the toys of today are really just fad driven, and tend to only be popular for a few years anyway. I hope that S6 lasts a long while, and produces some great toys. I just hopes it makes it past the one year mark, and who knows this thing could end up suprising us...

[Three Storms]

Then of course, we have the fanbase that wants to perpetuate the big ol bully myth about Wal-Marts, and how THEY dictate to toy companies what to make and how to make it and package it, and then you have to wonder why hasbro should require a marketing team at all, since all they need is their instructions from Wal-Mart and make it so? 

 

VH, it's not a myth. Wal-Mart is the 800lb. gorilla in the room.

Thats true. The LotR Fellbeast was cancelled because Wal-Mart refused to carry it because they decided it looked too evil, and I was talking with a rep from a small toy company a couple of years ago on another board (I think it was figures.com), and a series of toys based on the video game Dynasty Warriors was also killed because Wal-Mart took no interest in it.

 

 

These are just two examples that I can remember off-hand, but it does happen.

[Untouchable]

And don't forget Wal-Mart was responsible for putting the Action Attack on the Valor v Venom toys.

[omegawrath]

Sigma Six is selling out routinely in my area. The slower movers are Heavy Duty and Spirit, but they do sell. The bikes are moderate and the role play stuff is pretty stagnant.

 

Sigma 6- it's not ARAH, but it is a cool interpretation of it. If you count the fact that Storm SHadow and Snake-Eyes never even encountered each other in the original cartoon, there is something to be said for this being a focal point of the new series. It's also the reason so many younger and fairweather fans don't recognize Storm Shadow as a Joe. Oh well.

 

I think he's a Sgt. Major. That means he outranks Duke.

 

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

[omegawrath]

And besides, taking the 3 3/4" line out of stores is the best thing that's ever happened to it.

 

I don't know about you haters, but in the past few months, I've recieved two new waves of Joe and Cobra figures, a whole MESS of soldiers and officers, new HISS tanks, this nifty night-ops Humvee that I use as a Stinger, New versions of the Crimson Guardsmen, Snow Serpernts, Medi-Vipers, FREAKING MEDI-VIPERS, gnarly Range Vipers, and not to MENTION the perfect new remolding of HAWK looking more like himself than Duke (finally) Scarlett, Breaker, FRED VII, ZARTAN-PERFECT Zartan, and so on.

 

You guys just don't know a good thing when you see it. That's why the Transformers Movie is underway and JOE is being tied up in perpetual development.

 

For military fans, we're not very well organized.

[redrum2581]

Buisness men as a whole can't seem to see the forrest for the tress. Do they actually teach them to ingore the problem and come up with crazy out of left field solutions in buisness school?

 

 

Professor: If a line has become stagnet because of oversatiuartion of the market with certain figures, and unavailablity of others what would do you do?

 

Student 1: Cut down production on the figures that arn't moving, while increasing production on those that do?

 

Professor: You couldn't be more wrong, why do you even show up to class?

 

Student: Oh Contiune in the same production run but add stickers to the package.

 

Professor: Good....Anyone else.

 

Student: Take it a risky and unexpected direction that'll cost the company millions if fails?

 

Professor: Excellent.

 

Student: Try to scam the consumer into fixing your mistake while contiuning the same practives that got you into trouble in the first place?

 

Professor: Outstanding!

 

 

Supply and Demand is dead. It's been replaces with "You'll take what we give you and like it."

yup, like on "Big" ya'll remember that movie @smilepunch@ anyway he's in the board room meeting and they show a tf that's a skyscraper @hmmm@ and he say's this is stupid kids don't want to play with a skyscraper, we need kids in those board rooms atleast 10-20 of various ages to give their opinions, they'll tell you what they want, what they like, then you get 10-20parents to price it and tweak that # buy production cost and bam you might just have something, but i assume they already do this, i mean in videogames are tested by various consumers before they're released; however, i tend to wonder what the 7734 the testers are thinking, and in the same line what the 7734 those kids be thinking sometimes

[Tracks83]

Hasbro thinks it is selling very well, as they already have a second asst planned of Commando figures, and a new asst known as Soldier figures

[redrum2581]

Hasbro thinks it is selling very well, as they already have a second asst planned of Commando figures, and a new asst known as Soldier figures

that might not be necessary true, those could've already been developed and are just release some at a time, kinda like how dtc stuff was already designed

[ARROW]

Hasbro thinks it is selling very well, as they already have a second asst planned of Commando figures, and a new asst known as Soldier figures

that might not be necessary true, those could've already been developed and are just release some at a time, kinda like how dtc stuff was already designed

The new stuff was designed well before the brand even made it to stores.

The really telling stuff will probably be shown at next years convention, San Diego comiccon, or the Pre-ToyFair held in the fall of 2006.

If it get's more elaborate and diverse, then that is a sign the brand is a hit.

[redrum2581]

Hasbro thinks it is selling very well, as they already have a second asst planned of Commando figures, and a new asst known as Soldier figures

that might not be necessary true, those could've already been developed and are just release some at a time, kinda like how dtc stuff was already designed

The new stuff was designed well before the brand even made it to stores.

The really telling stuff will probably be shown at next years convention, San Diego comiccon, or the Pre-ToyFair held in the fall of 2006.

If it get's more elaborate and diverse, then that is a sign the brand is a hit.

@hmmm@ the brand is a hit when we see scarlett and baroness @smilepunch@

[Rama Sha]

Buisness men as a whole can't seem to see the forrest for the tress. Do they actually teach them to ingore the problem and come up with crazy out of left field solutions in buisness school?

 

 

I defintely do not want to defend corporate America. It just isn't my thing. However, you do realize that there was a time when business men decided to shrink Gi Joe to the 3 3/4" scale, and I don't think any of us here can say that was a business mistake.

 

It wasn't a mistake, but it just as easly could be. It was the huge creative force behind GI. Joe (same creative force that made a bunch of repacked medicore Japanese toys into the toy Jugernaut that is Transformers.) and a lot of luck. Just changing the scale IMHO didn't have anything to do with the popularity of either GI Joe or SW, and that it was the story behind it that made them so big. Let's not forget that Mego tried 3 3/4 figures as well and it didn't save that company. It wasn't a huge hit JUST because it was 3 3/4. If Hasbro had just shrunk GI Joe and contiuned with the themes in the old line and not gave it an indepth storyline, I doubt this forum would be here. I take that back, it would be here and full of 12" collectors who would look on the 3 3/4 figures the same way we do those silly "Alien" figures that came at the end of ARAH. There is a lot more too it, then a simple scale change.

[ARROW]

There is a lot more too it, then a simple scale change.

Very much so.

When the 3 3/4" scale appeared for GIJOE there were several considerations:

 

Star Wars was immensely popular and its was scaled at 3 3/3" size for the vehicles. GIJOE went the same way.

The other thing was the concept--the original 12" GIJOES never had a strongly defined enemy. The Intruders for the Adventure Team were somewhat unsatisfying villains because kids just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that bad guys that were SMALLER than the heroes could be any threat to them. The SuperJoe concept had villains, but the whole sci-fi/GIJOE thing was on the downslide at that time.

 

The story the Hasbro folks like to tell is the the USA Hockey team win at the Lake Placid Olympics gave rise to a nationalistic fervor--something that hadn't been seen in the USA for some time. The Vietnam debacle, Watergate, the Iranian hostage crisis and the failure of Desert One rescue mission gave Americans the feeling it was not worth it to root for themselves--but that changed. The emotional doldrums of the nation rose out of the cynical 70's into the more optimistic 80's.

The Reagan era also lent a conservative patriotic bent to things, and thus the dual teams concept of GIJOE vs COBRA came to be.

 

Its really simple, but that's what makes it so strong. It doesn't need explanation, or any grasp to understand. Its good vs evil and THAT has always worked in toys.

 

The detailed figures and vehicles that followed did the rest.

That was all the brainchild of some business folks with their finger on the cultural pulse at the time--and it worked.

[Viper Hunter]

VH, I don't mean this as an attack so please don't take it as such, but your pessimistic view of marketing has very little basis in reality.

Naaaah....don't worry about me getting all offended over something like that. I can't very well toss out some of the stuff I do for dissection, expecting people to not take it personal, and then get all bent out of shape myself, over somebody elses choice to reply to it, and debate my thoughts and theories. I'm cool with your opinions on it.

 

 

again, do you think toy companies spend millions of dollars developing and producing a toy in a large scale because they want to force kids to play with larger scale toys, or do you think that maybe kids are telling toy companies they want larger scale toys so the toy companies are spending millions of dollars to tailor their products to the consumers?

 

I don't think kids are actually "telling" these people (in charge) anything, really. I think very little research is done in this area, and much like people that go out and take polls....get a small sampling of an idea of what a PORTION of the people are thinking, and then develop a statistic based on those few samples, and present it as "65% of Americans think THIS about THAT".

 

Out of 20 kids thrown into a room full of toys....65% of them picked up a larger scaled action figure to play with (out of the 10-1 ratio of them over anything else in the room, likely) and viola'...they determine that kids prefer Marvel Legends scaled action figures over the 3 3/4" sized toys like G.I.Joe?

 

I also think Hasbro came up with the new scale of Sigma Six, because they've lost their imagination with the 3 3/4" scale, and knew that SOMETHING needed to change to generate a spark (will you) with their G.I.Joe brand name, and they decided it was much easier to keep pounding out the same ol' characters over and over again, but do so in a NEW scale. "SEE...it's DIFFERENT!"

 

It's a license to rehash the whole damn ARAH lineup of core (favorite) characters, which is much easier (and less expensive) than hiring some fresh imagination to develop new characters in the 3 3/4" scale. I would have rather seen something like what ARROW suggested be done, with a merger of ALL the G.I.Joe mythos combined as a new force of terrorist fighting soldiers. Adventure Team Joes (work up some names for'em) bring in all the cool characters from Extreme and Savage and make them in the 3 3/4" scale.

 

Hasbro's cheating with this S6 stuff, and leaning on the few classic names to bolster the popularity of the line and replace the need for cool vehicles with a few extra weapons in the figure packs, and call it a great marketing strategy. Seems like coat-tail riding to me and unimaginative, seeing how it's not anything NEW or ground breaking....the style they went with for S6 that is.

 

 

the toy company doesn't care what kids play with. they only care about producing toys that kids will play with.  fact is, consumers dictate what companies produce, not the other way around.  with the millions of dollars at stake in this business, nobody is simply saying you're going to take this toy and like it!

 

We're being led to believe that THAT is exactly how Wal-Mart speaks to toy companies though, or at least just Hasbro. The consumers have no say, just the big bad bully corporate folk like Wally World execs.

 

your stance that toy companies make decisions arbitrarily, like increasing the scale because that is what the toy companies wants, has no basis in reality of product development.  it doesn't.

 

 

It's not that I'm suggesting that they do these things arbitrarily, and just based off of what THEY think would make a cool toy, that if they were still a kid, would want to play with. I think like any job anybody has, they have to present ideas on occasion, to boost sales, and if one idea is a flop and then another idea is a flop, before they come up with flop number 3....they look into what's popular and selling well with the competition, and try to capitalize on THAT current phenomenon, by going in a direction that resembles more of what they're doing.

 

Pretty much like how Lanard mimics Hasbro....I think Hasbro pulled a mimic of their own on this S6 stuff, but because Hasbro is a bigger company, they can pull if off with it appearing less obvious. Instead of being 6"...they make theirs 8" and it disputes all claims of trying to mimic anything else.

 

this isn't the case of an adult overthinking something, it is the case of someone who has a huge million dollar responsibility to his employer and his family trying to make the best decision possible to do the best job possible to provide his target audience (children) the best product possible based on what they want.  if you think making a responsible and informed decision is overthinking, than I would rather overthink.  only a fool throws millions of dollars without thinking about it.

 

Try and think of some of the goofs we've seen performed on our G.I.Joes already, over the years? I would venture to think they wished those ideas had been kept more simple and not so overthunk as what they were, trying to devise a new and improved G.I.Joe figure. They seem to be in the habit of blowing millions quite often, on this type of so-called thoughtful research, and that's where they are "overthinking".

 

Are the chances of Sigma Six being more popular with the kids now, going to be based on the fact that they're in a size, that hasbro's research department determined was more favorable amongst them (the kids)...or that they appear more "stylized" now (over the smaller scaled Joes), or will it just be that the cartoon series will generate enough new awareness of the line, and when the kids run to the toy department, to find Duke or Heavy Duty, they'll be very particular in the specific scale they find them in, before still wanting them?

 

I'd venture another guess, that they'd buy them in 3 3/4" scale just the same (if not more...given a R.O.C.C. on the shelves alongside'em) than what they will the 8" NOW, all alone and unchallenged.

[Viper Hunter]

For military fans, we're not very well organized.

 

I like my superheros and all, but the reason I've always loved G.I.Joe is because they could be my Dad, my older Brother, a Cousin or Uncle who actually SERVED in the military.

 

Strong individuals with morals, principles and integrity who are willing to sacrifice their own safety, well-being or even LIVES, to defend family, country, world and friends...from evil.

 

Ninjas and robots are fun also, but even in an element like what was presented in the movie ALIENS...you had a basic group of hardcore and highly trained soldiers, in the MILITARY...going out to defend a colony against, well..ALIENS!

 

We're not the ones "unorganized" in our love of an action figure whose roots are deep in the military, and wanting to see it return to that. It's the toy makers that have gotten so discombobulated in how to maintain that theme into the next generation of kids.

[Devilbat]

It's a license to rehash the whole damn ARAH lineup of core (favorite) characters, which is much easier (and less expensive) than hiring some fresh imagination to develop new characters in the 3 3/4" scale. I would have rather seen something like what ARROW suggested be done, with a merger of ALL the G.I.Joe mythos combined as a new force of terrorist fighting soldiers.    Adventure Team Joes (work up some names for'em) bring in all the cool characters from Extreme and Savage and make them in the 3 3/4" scale.

VH, I probably love Sigma 6 as much as you hate it. And I personally think Sigma 6 is the very result of a "fresh imagining", to paraphrase your comment, but, good grief...I love your's and ARROW's notion of combining all previous mythos or versions of G.I. Joe into one big new line of figures, vehicles, and playsets. As much as I love Sigma 6, I could definitely get behind that!

 

But also, I can't help but think it'd be cool if such a line would clock-in at exactly four inches. That way Hasbro is forced into yet even newer territory again, and they're forced to design a new, standard body construction. And four inches wouldn't be enough of a change to keep them from making new vehicles and playsets. I just imagine them as having fairly buff proportions (not POTF2 or GvsC Wave 1 buffness mind you), and all metals rivets and hard plastic again. Now to get around the breakable thumbs, they could have the current grade plastic hands that pop into swivel wrist joints, but the rest of the body would be made out of the old-school plastic. And I want to see the quality and attention to detail that we've seen with Sigma 6.

 

Like I said, I love Sigma 6 y'all, and I want to see it do well and continue for a while to come, but...I could get excited over a new line that encompasses all aspects of the different Joe series we've seen over the years. That'd be very cool...

[Darque-Angel]

If Walmart is in anyway responsible for dictating the change from 3 3/4" to S6 to Hasbro, then why is it that Walmarts are so slow to get them? None of the Walmarts in my area have gotten even one shipment of S6, in fact they don't even have shelf space reserved for them yet.

 

Granted, I don't think Walmart has been favorable towards GI Joe, but I think it highly unlikely they had anything to do with S6 or any of the other negative gimmicks like "Action Attack" and "Sound attack tabs" that have come out over the past few years.

[ARROW]

I have a suspicion that if Sigma Six doesn't do as well as hoped--that is it sells, but doesn't sell like a hit would, then Hasbro's fallback might be a GIJOE Universe thing.

 

Its such a no-brainer--they own it, they have the characters, they have the means and the marketing savvy.

 

I'd raise a hue and cry with Hasbro and get the fire lit under their asses on it.