[Lord Amron]

Devil Bat, on Jul 4 2009, 01:16 AM, said:

I liked Jazz. I liked his car and robot modes. I liked how he would kinda breakdance when he transformed. And I loved that scene where he misdirects Brawl's cannonfire during the battle in the city; it was a nod to the original animated film where Kup does the same thing to Blitzwing. The only thing I hated about Jazz was the "little b!tc#e$" line. I hated that!

The main thing I think people lose sight of concerning Jazz is that ultimately he was a hero. He faced Megatron one-on-one and sacrificed himself to help Sam escape with the Allspark. If he hadn't done that, I think the same people that demoan his characterization would have said, "Well, Jazz was the "black" character, so the regulated him to the background or sidelines so that a heroic "white" robot could step up to the plate and face Megatron and die a hero."

My point is, there are those that are gonna see racism in everything if they look hard enough, no matter what the truth or reality of the matter may actually be. It's like all of those conspiracy theorists that see a cover-up in everything the government does. Sometimes it is just a weather balloon, and sometimes a robot is just a robot that happens to have a "black" voice. Now one might consider the breakdancing and "jive-talk" as blatant stereotypical behavior associated with African Americans, but truthfully there are African Americans that actually engage in each if not both of those behaviors. Are they negative? I don't think so, not as long as they're not cursing. And Jazz was "black" in the original cartoon, complete with "jive-talk", if I remember correctly. I never heard anyone complain about the so-called negative stereotype that was illustrated in that version of the character.

So do I think Michael Bay is a predjudiced pig that covertly portrays different races in a negative manner under the guise of robots? Absolutely not, and I think to suggest otherwise is absurd. Look at how heroically he portrayed Will Smith's and Martin Lawrence's African American characters in the Bad Boys movies. And look at Tyrese Gibson's character in Transformers. I liked his character and thought he was a cool and heroic bad-@$$, and I never considered his race, not once. Furthermore, I think Anthony Anderson's and Bernie Mac's character's perpetuated the modern black stereotype more that anybody else in the movie, as much as I loved their characters and thought they were very funny, but nobody complains about them.

I just think if he were gonna be racist, it would come out more in the human actors. But maybe that's just me.

Now none of this means that I don't believe racism still exists in this country. It does unfortunately, and I'm afraid it always will in some form or another. I just don't think it exists in Michael Bay's movies. People that think so are making mountains out of mole-hills, in my humble opinion. As a matter of fact, I think if anything his movies illustrate and celebrate the diversity of this country.

DB very interesting points. I saw the film yesterday and walked away......content but "disturbed". I can see the twims being taken two different ways: the way they were intended and the way they are being percieved.

The Intended Way
I think Bay wanted Ewoks or Jar Jar for his sequel. It was clearly apparant by the twins constant bickering and "funny" voices that he hoped kids would laugh with delight every time they were on the screen. Fans like us endured this before with the god awful Ewoks and even worse Jar Jar. I remember seeing Episode 1 and kids loved that long eared idiot and laughed at everything he did while I groaned. The twins were the same (thankfully my girls like BB and Prime better) so I'd give Bay and "e" for effort and "t" for nice try. His intention fell short of the perception that formed as people walked out of the film.

The Percieved Reality
The problems arose when the mannerism and look the twins. The ewoks escape this because they were cute teddy bears. Jar Jar and the twins walked a raggedy edge of stereotype from their walk, talk, and actions. It's like one long stereotypical joke that is NOT funny. Not only is it not funny it's also unnecessary and that's where the trouble begins. I will never say that Bay or anyone else involved had racial intent to offend....I think the people involved didn't know any better or had a clue as to what line they were in danger of crossing. Someone SHOULD have been more aware of the potential problem the twins would bring and toned it down. I wasn't offended but I did roll my eyes and state "here we go again" a few times. Had the twins scenes been snipped here and there it would have made their antics bearable..... I mean they were key in finding the Matrix so that redeemed them a bit. As it stands it's almost as if they were shoved down our throats and then quickly wore out their welcome...plus I wanted more Sideswipe.

Playing with race can be a awesome thing......if you know how to do it. The best examples of how to do it are True Identity, my beloved Boondocks, and most recently, Tropic Thunder (White Chicks for what it was was passable as it was more targeting the "spoiled hieress" and not white people). I was honestly more upset that they didn't go farther in Tropic Thunder (I mean as many Black NCOs in war films there are to draw on they really could have had ALOT of fun with Osirus), BUT the paramount thing was they were aware of that raggedy edge and played it safe...for better or worse. For me the only crime commited here is claiming these buffons are for kids and and not having enough situational foresight to see how Mudflap and Skids could come back and bite because their behavior was far from kid friendly.

I think what burned a few people up was that the twins were unexpected, unnecessary, and largely unwanted. I walked out of the film thinking "man Sideswipe was the ish I wish they showed more of him and less of frik and frak." Jazz gets a pass because we knew he was Black. It would be obvious that would be the speech pattern he would gravitate towards. The Breakdance transform was cool to me. The fact that he died sucked but he didn't die in vain.

So let's make the distinction:
Is Transformers 2 racist???? NO
Is Transformers 2 guilty of unfortunate stereotyping under the guise of making a kids movie? YES

I will disagree with the "mountain out of a molehill" statement due to the simple fact that things like this are a hinderance to every bit of progress made. Agree of not, this movie reflects qualities that are not the best. Communities are struggling with people emulating the lifestyle they see/hear in the entertainment world. To "glorify" and debase it as funny will ensure that more kids will fall victim to trying to live that life or talk that talk until they meet someone who really is from that side of the street and bad things happen. Its why some people think it's cooler to be dumb than smart. Again Bay wasn't sending that message intentionally BUT it was prevelant enough that it was picked up on and no amount of back peddling and saying "they're just robots" erases the misstep. Because even though they are just robots a REAL PERSON made a conscious decision on how they looked, talked, and behaved and the fact that no one saw something amiss is sad. Great film though!!!! Prime kicked so much @$$!!!!!!

[Mike]

SUPREMEQUEEN, on Jul 3 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

IronMan1, on Jul 3 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

SUPREMEQUEEN, on Jul 3 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

tnswman, on Jul 2 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

BigBearJahlon, on Jul 2 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

I finally TF2 the other day, and I was really surprised at what I saw. After reading about it receiving soooo many negative reviews, I wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. Since me friend wanted to see it in "peace" we left all our kids home and figured we would take them this Sunday to see it as a whole family outing.

We have now changed our minds. I will not take my kids to see a movie that I THOUGHT was for children so heavily laced with sexual innuendo, cursing, and racial stereotypes that I have to actually make a pass on a movie intended for them.

When we think it is ok for a child's toy to transform in a giant robot with hanging testicles, something is wrong!
When it is ok to have 2 argumentative, ugly and gold tooth wearing hoods as robots played up as comic relief for "fun", regardless of the images of negative stereotypes, then somethignis wrong!

I could go on, but what is wrong is out moral decay into accepting anything for the same of fun, $, and/ or entertainement.

It is one thing to go see a comedian who tells you that he does racial jokes. You expect what is coming next. Some stuff we need to discuss and probably laugh at to deal with.

But to blindside the parents with a show @ kids with this stuff is ridiculous.

In the 1stflick, only Jazz introduced himself with vulgarity, calling them bitchs. And of course, he later dies as most black characters have in action films.
Now we have 2 Black based TFs that don't die, but kill you with what is supposed to be "humor".

Yes, this is my opinion, but many others feel the same way. It killed a lot of the fun of the movie.
Since Optimus is the "white" character, imagine if he started calling people bithces, pussies, and the sort?
If he told someone to shut the hell up before he pops a cap? or if Optimus had his tires rest on his crotch and called them his black balled tires?
People would be shocked and dismayed. But since similar was doen by just some genereic TFs, it seems that no one cares, and if we do complain then we must be crazy.

I mean did we need to see Torturo's cheeks? I was wondering if I was watchers TF2 or Van Wilder meets the Robots?

The saddest thing is that this was probably done in complete ignorance, but it does not make it excuseable.
Next time tell Michael Bay and the writers to stick to the plot and the action. Leave the humor to comedians!

AMEN!! However, I do not and WILL not think that this was done in ignorance! Too much time and effort goes into these movies. Too many people work on them and it shows that they wanted things to appear just as they seem.

I don't want the PC police to come in and FORCE Black robots, humans, whatever in a movie or story. I want them to be there naturally and done in a way that people are proud of. NOBODY likes gangsters or thugs..no matter waht color they are...and yea, as a white guy, I am tired of being made to feel ashamed for the past ( even though my G, G, Grandfather was a Union Army Calvary Captain who actually freed slaves in TN and Ga ). We CAN NOT change the past...We can work together to make sure that all races act in responsible and MATURE ways.

I already pointed out how Bay was slammed with bad press for the death of Jazz which he found himself in the hot seat coming up with excuses as to why he died. From that alone he was made aware that just like a sex, TFs also can have a "psudo race" based on their personality.

So the lame ass "steve erkel", "oops.........I did that" It does'nt fly in my book.

Jazz sucks he was the lamest of the bunch movie wise. None of these robots are white black or anything else they are ROBOTS.

and how would you know if Jazz sucked or not. He was'nt even featured in the movie enough to get a feel for his character. Bay put him in long enough to establish that his personality/sterotype is ghetto black...........and now lets all watch the black bot die a horriable death. CLICHE'!

You act like Jazz was the only robot to die in the movie, far from it.

So what, they SHOULDN'T have killed Jazz, BECAUSE he was played by a black voice actor?? to me, that's racist.

[Devil Bat]

Lord Amron, on Jul 4 2009, 10:05 PM, said:

Devil Bat, on Jul 4 2009, 01:16 AM, said:

I liked Jazz. I liked his car and robot modes. I liked how he would kinda breakdance when he transformed. And I loved that scene where he misdirects Brawl's cannonfire during the battle in the city; it was a nod to the original animated film where Kup does the same thing to Blitzwing. The only thing I hated about Jazz was the "little b!tc#e$" line. I hated that!

The main thing I think people lose sight of concerning Jazz is that ultimately he was a hero. He faced Megatron one-on-one and sacrificed himself to help Sam escape with the Allspark. If he hadn't done that, I think the same people that demoan his characterization would have said, "Well, Jazz was the "black" character, so the regulated him to the background or sidelines so that a heroic "white" robot could step up to the plate and face Megatron and die a hero."

My point is, there are those that are gonna see racism in everything if they look hard enough, no matter what the truth or reality of the matter may actually be. It's like all of those conspiracy theorists that see a cover-up in everything the government does. Sometimes it is just a weather balloon, and sometimes a robot is just a robot that happens to have a "black" voice. Now one might consider the breakdancing and "jive-talk" as blatant stereotypical behavior associated with African Americans, but truthfully there are African Americans that actually engage in each if not both of those behaviors. Are they negative? I don't think so, not as long as they're not cursing. And Jazz was "black" in the original cartoon, complete with "jive-talk", if I remember correctly. I never heard anyone complain about the so-called negative stereotype that was illustrated in that version of the character.

So do I think Michael Bay is a predjudiced pig that covertly portrays different races in a negative manner under the guise of robots? Absolutely not, and I think to suggest otherwise is absurd. Look at how heroically he portrayed Will Smith's and Martin Lawrence's African American characters in the Bad Boys movies. And look at Tyrese Gibson's character in Transformers. I liked his character and thought he was a cool and heroic bad-@$$, and I never considered his race, not once. Furthermore, I think Anthony Anderson's and Bernie Mac's character's perpetuated the modern black stereotype more that anybody else in the movie, as much as I loved their characters and thought they were very funny, but nobody complains about them.

I just think if he were gonna be racist, it would come out more in the human actors. But maybe that's just me.

Now none of this means that I don't believe racism still exists in this country. It does unfortunately, and I'm afraid it always will in some form or another. I just don't think it exists in Michael Bay's movies. People that think so are making mountains out of mole-hills, in my humble opinion. As a matter of fact, I think if anything his movies illustrate and celebrate the diversity of this country.

DB very interesting points. I saw the film yesterday and walked away......content but "disturbed". I can see the twims being taken two different ways: the way they were intended and the way they are being percieved.

The Intended Way
I think Bay wanted Ewoks or Jar Jar for his sequel. It was clearly apparant by the twins constant bickering and "funny" voices that he hoped kids would laugh with delight every time they were on the screen. Fans like us endured this before with the god awful Ewoks and even worse Jar Jar. I remember seeing Episode 1 and kids loved that long eared idiot and laughed at everything he did while I groaned. The twins were the same (thankfully my girls like BB and Prime better) so I'd give Bay and "e" for effort and "t" for nice try. His intention fell short of the perception that formed as people walked out of the film.

The Percieved Reality
The problems arose when the mannerism and look the twins. The ewoks escape this because they were cute teddy bears. Jar Jar and the twins walked a raggedy edge of stereotype from their walk, talk, and actions. It's like one long stereotypical joke that is NOT funny. Not only is it not funny it's also unnecessary and that's where the trouble begins. I will never say that Bay or anyone else involved had racial intent to offend....I think the people involved didn't know any better or had a clue as to what line they were in danger of crossing. Someone SHOULD have been more aware of the potential problem the twins would bring and toned it down. I wasn't offended but I did roll my eyes and state "here we go again" a few times. Had the twins scenes been snipped here and there it would have made their antics bearable..... I mean they were key in finding the Matrix so that redeemed them a bit. As it stands it's almost as if they were shoved down our throats and then quickly wore out their welcome...plus I wanted more Sideswipe.

Playing with race can be a awesome thing......if you know how to do it. The best examples of how to do it are True Identity, my beloved Boondocks, and most recently, Tropic Thunder (White Chicks for what it was was passable as it was more targeting the "spoiled hieress" and not white people). I was honestly more upset that they didn't go farther in Tropic Thunder (I mean as many Black NCOs in war films there are to draw on they really could have had ALOT of fun with Osirus), BUT the paramount thing was they were aware of that raggedy edge and played it safe...for better or worse. For me the only crime commited here is claiming these buffons are for kids and and not having enough situational foresight to see how Mudflap and Skids could come back and bite because their behavior was far from kid friendly.

I think what burned a few people up was that the twins were unexpected, unnecessary, and largely unwanted. I walked out of the film thinking "man Sideswipe was the ish I wish they showed more of him and less of frik and frak." Jazz gets a pass because we knew he was Black. It would be obvious that would be the speech pattern he would gravitate towards. The Breakdance transform was cool to me. The fact that he died sucked but he didn't die in vain.

So let's make the distinction:
Is Transformers 2 racist???? NO
Is Transformers 2 guilty of unfortunate stereotyping under the guise of making a kids movie? YES

I will disagree with the "mountain out of a molehill" statement due to the simple fact that things like this are a hinderance to every bit of progress made. Agree of not, this movie reflects qualities that are not the best. Communities are struggling with people emulating the lifestyle they see/hear in the entertainment world. To "glorify" and debase it as funny will ensure that more kids will fall victim to trying to live that life or talk that talk until they meet someone who really is from that side of the street and bad things happen. Its why some people think it's cooler to be dumb than smart. Again Bay wasn't sending that message intentionally BUT it was prevelant enough that it was picked up on and no amount of back peddling and saying "they're just robots" erases the misstep. Because even though they are just robots a REAL PERSON made a conscious decision on how they looked, talked, and behaved and the fact that no one saw something amiss is sad. Great film though!!!! Prime kicked so much @$$!!!!!!

Well, like I told someone else Lord Amron, I've not seen the movie yet, so I really can't say with conviction one way or another whether I think they're portrayed inapppropriately or not. I'm not truly qualified to make a judgement call. On a side note though, I've also heard people complain about the non-symetrical look of these characters' faces and parts of their body, but personally I think that makes them more interesting, never mind the fact that they may perpetuate a negative image or stereotype. I hated their designs at first, but the more I considered it, it began to make sense, that if these Transformers are biomechanical life forms, then they may be prone to malformations and defects, just like any other life from. That's something I hadn't considered before, and it makes the characters just that much more interesting to me. But as far as their behavior and actions in the movie are concerned, I'll just have to watch it and decide for myself if they seem disturbing and/or insulting.

And I will agree that even if Michael Bay didn't mean for these characters to be racial or cultural caricatures, they may still prove to inadvertently glorify or promote negative "street" behavior in kids' eyes. BTW, thanks for the kind words man.

[JumpTheShark]

Mike, on Jul 4 2009, 08:49 PM, said:

SUPREMEQUEEN, on Jul 3 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

IronMan1, on Jul 3 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

SUPREMEQUEEN, on Jul 3 2009, 01:31 AM, said:

tnswman, on Jul 2 2009, 11:33 AM, said:

BigBearJahlon, on Jul 2 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

I finally TF2 the other day, and I was really surprised at what I saw. After reading about it receiving soooo many negative reviews, I wanted to see what all the hoopla was about. Since me friend wanted to see it in "peace" we left all our kids home and figured we would take them this Sunday to see it as a whole family outing.

We have now changed our minds. I will not take my kids to see a movie that I THOUGHT was for children so heavily laced with sexual innuendo, cursing, and racial stereotypes that I have to actually make a pass on a movie intended for them.

When we think it is ok for a child's toy to transform in a giant robot with hanging testicles, something is wrong!
When it is ok to have 2 argumentative, ugly and gold tooth wearing hoods as robots played up as comic relief for "fun", regardless of the images of negative stereotypes, then somethignis wrong!

I could go on, but what is wrong is out moral decay into accepting anything for the same of fun, $, and/ or entertainement.

It is one thing to go see a comedian who tells you that he does racial jokes. You expect what is coming next. Some stuff we need to discuss and probably laugh at to deal with.

But to blindside the parents with a show @ kids with this stuff is ridiculous.

In the 1stflick, only Jazz introduced himself with vulgarity, calling them bitchs. And of course, he later dies as most black characters have in action films.
Now we have 2 Black based TFs that don't die, but kill you with what is supposed to be "humor".

Yes, this is my opinion, but many others feel the same way. It killed a lot of the fun of the movie.
Since Optimus is the "white" character, imagine if he started calling people bithces, pussies, and the sort?
If he told someone to shut the hell up before he pops a cap? or if Optimus had his tires rest on his crotch and called them his black balled tires?
People would be shocked and dismayed. But since similar was doen by just some genereic TFs, it seems that no one cares, and if we do complain then we must be crazy.

I mean did we need to see Torturo's cheeks? I was wondering if I was watchers TF2 or Van Wilder meets the Robots?

The saddest thing is that this was probably done in complete ignorance, but it does not make it excuseable.
Next time tell Michael Bay and the writers to stick to the plot and the action. Leave the humor to comedians!

AMEN!! However, I do not and WILL not think that this was done in ignorance! Too much time and effort goes into these movies. Too many people work on them and it shows that they wanted things to appear just as they seem.

I don't want the PC police to come in and FORCE Black robots, humans, whatever in a movie or story. I want them to be there naturally and done in a way that people are proud of. NOBODY likes gangsters or thugs..no matter waht color they are...and yea, as a white guy, I am tired of being made to feel ashamed for the past ( even though my G, G, Grandfather was a Union Army Calvary Captain who actually freed slaves in TN and Ga ). We CAN NOT change the past...We can work together to make sure that all races act in responsible and MATURE ways.

I already pointed out how Bay was slammed with bad press for the death of Jazz which he found himself in the hot seat coming up with excuses as to why he died. From that alone he was made aware that just like a sex, TFs also can have a "psudo race" based on their personality.

So the lame ass "steve erkel", "oops.........I did that" It does'nt fly in my book.

Jazz sucks he was the lamest of the bunch movie wise. None of these robots are white black or anything else they are ROBOTS.

and how would you know if Jazz sucked or not. He was'nt even featured in the movie enough to get a feel for his character. Bay put him in long enough to establish that his personality/sterotype is ghetto black...........and now lets all watch the black bot die a horriable death. CLICHE'!

You act like Jazz was the only robot to die in the movie, far from it.

So what, they SHOULDN'T have killed Jazz, BECAUSE he was played by a black voice actor?? to me, that's racist.

Albeit a different kind of racism. Like on opening day of TDK last year, I heard a black girl in the theatre say "he just shot the black guy" when the joker shot the cop from the rig's driver side window. It's stupid to say the least.

[Mike]

yeah man, why point out that their black at all, who cares. a person is a person, and a robot is a robot. it makes me mad people call it racist and stuff.. its not like Megatron pulled out a noose, and said "die black guy!"

not to mention the death of jazz was probably written, long before any voice actor was ever picked to voice him.

[JumpTheShark]

Mike, on Jul 5 2009, 08:34 AM, said:

yeah man, why point out that their black at all, who cares. a person is a person, and a robot is a robot. it makes me mad people call it racist and stuff.. its not like Megatron pulled out a noose, and said "die black guy!"

not to mention the death of jazz was probably written, long before any voice actor was ever picked to voice him.

It's originally started by white self hating liberals (who feel guilty because of history etc).

[Wheeljack35]

I seen the movie today and I had no problem with the twins