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The Birth Of The Lightsaber

#1 User is offline   Bespin refugee 

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 06:30 PM

The Birth of the Lightsaber

#2 User is offline   featofstrength 

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:08 PM

Death of the Lightsaber: May 16th 2002...killed by excessive use
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#3 User is offline   Devilbat 

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 09:46 PM

Hey feat...what's the difference between all of those Jedi Knights using what is the equivalence of a sword in battle and thousands of medieval knights using metal swords in battle?

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:52 AM

View PostDevilbat, on 29 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Hey feat...what's the difference between all of those Jedi Knights using what is the equivalence of a sword in battle and thousands of medieval knights using metal swords in battle?


Aside from battles that actually carry emotional weight with real consequences? And real life vs screen?

Weight and practicality of the weapons.
Speed and ease.
Armor restrictions.
Bludgeon weapons as opposed to clean, cauterized wounds.
Turning backs to the enemy to do flashy spins, flips, kicks.
Human lives vs. bugs and clones(souls? not according to Jedi)

And I doubt a knight ever, before a major battle, twirled his broadsword just so an audience wouldn't feel bored.

Wanna talk fencing now? This is how it's done:
Posted Image
It's almost a cliche to drop that one, but hundreds of film critics and swords masters approval over the ages of filmdom cant be wrong.

The original Star Wars movies had the right level of choreography and practical swordplay, partnered with excellent acting/scene setups (even good fiction can make you believe in emotional weight with real consequences).

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:37 PM

View Postfeatofstrength, on 29 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Death of the Lightsaber: May 16th 2002...killed by excessive use
Posted Image


Look on the bright side you can play the shot game with the SW prequels take a shot every time a lightsaber gets ignited. By the time you get to this scene you are gonna be in a good mood and enjoy the prequels. :D

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Posted 01 April 2014 - 02:59 PM

View PostBelmont13, on 01 April 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

Look on the bright side you can play the shot game with the SW prequels take a shot every time a lightsaber gets ignited. By the time you get to this scene you are gonna be in a good mood and enjoy the prequels. :D


haha so true!

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:05 AM

View Postfeatofstrength, on 01 April 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

View PostDevilbat, on 29 March 2014 - 09:46 PM, said:

Hey feat...what's the difference between all of those Jedi Knights using what is the equivalence of a sword in battle and thousands of medieval knights using metal swords in battle?


Aside from battles that actually carry emotional weight with real consequences? And real life vs screen?

Weight and practicality of the weapons.
Speed and ease.
Armor restrictions.
Bludgeon weapons as opposed to clean, cauterized wounds.
Turning backs to the enemy to do flashy spins, flips, kicks.
Human lives vs. bugs and clones(souls? not according to Jedi)

And I doubt a knight ever, before a major battle, twirled his broadsword just so an audience wouldn't feel bored.

Wanna talk fencing now? This is how it's done:
Posted Image
It's almost a cliche to drop that one, but hundreds of film critics and swords masters approval over the ages of filmdom cant be wrong.

The original Star Wars movies had the right level of choreography and practical swordplay, partnered with excellent acting/scene setups (even good fiction can make you believe in emotional weight with real consequences).


I wasn't referring to the practical differences...of course I know the literal differences between a lightsaber and a broadsword. I'm not stupid. I mean what's the difference between a couple hundred medieval knights using broadswords in battle and a couple hundred Jedi knights using lightsabers in battle. No matter what your opinion is concerning the use of a gimmick such as the lightsaber, my point was it's the exact same basic concept visually and in terms of type of on-screen fighting with some type of weapon.

By the way, when the Jedi and/or Sith are twirling their lightsabers, it's a combination of intimidation and, I personally think, in some cases, arrogance; sure, they're showing-off. You don't think all of the samurai swordmasters over the centuries didn't use intimidating vocalizations and dramatic moves to make an impression on their enemies? It's a historical fact. And feat...you can't tell me that stiff, boring duel between poor old Alec Guinness and David Prowse exhibited ANY kind of fluid or believable choreography and practical swordplay, whether you're talking about fencing or broadsword-fighting. The duel between Luke and Vader on Bespin? Yes, I'll give you that one...even the rematch in ROTJ. But not the original Star Wars, no way. Thankfully Lucas realized somewhere along the way that the swordplay choreography had to improve and become more dramatic, and that the lightsabers weren't some unwieldly weapon that required both hands, as he has alluded to initially conceptualizing them as in original interviews.

One more thing...going back to your comment about these prequel lightsaber fights not carrying any "emotional weight with real consequences", I'd like to offer my insight into each prequel duel and/or battle as to what the implications might have been had they been viewed by anyone not familiar with the original trilogy:


Qui-Gon Jinn/Obi-Wan on the Trade Federation ship/escape from Naboo: Hey, there's no emotional weight or consequences. These scenes just show how bad-ass the Jedi are. It's cool. What's wrong with having something in a science-fiction/fantasy film that's *gasp* simply cool?

Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul on Tatooine: Darth Maul's sudden and mysterious surprise attack heralded the re-emergence of the Sith Order in the galaxy, an ominous presence and threat not seen in ages, yet all of a sudden, here's evidence of a dangerous Dark Side warrior that could threaten peace and freedom in the galaxy. I'd say that's pretty weighty, if you ask me.

Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul in the Theed Palace: Again, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are faced with stopping a seemingly vicious, determined, and well-trained Sith warrior that seems bent on re-establishing the Sith Order and assassinating key political figures in the senate. Again, that's pretty weighty with some huge consequences for the galaxy.


On to Episode II...

Anakin vs. the Tusken Raiders: We don't really see a lot of this fight/slaughter, but it implies that Anakin has no problem wiping-out whole tribes of people/creatures if he justifies it in his own mind. The fact that there's a Jedi that's so powerful in the Force that has no problem wiping out entire groups of men, women, and children doesn't carry emotional weight and have real consequences? Really?

Multiple Jedi/Clone Troopers vs. Battle Droids/Geonosians: This battle is the flashpoint for the Republic waging war to stop the threat of the evil separatists throughout the galaxy. Intergalactic war is pretty weighty in my book. Now whether you extract any kind of emotional impact from this, you probably won't. I will concede on the point that it's hard to get emotional about thousands (millions) of faceless clones that aren't viewed as individuals that don't have some personal stake in the fight (the Clone Wars show did a better job of that) fighting even more millions of soulless automated droids that are simply carrying out the programming of their masters, but c'mon...isn't it just a little cool to think about there being these weird clones that are fighting what amounts to the Star Wars Universe's equivalence of Terminators (albeit a lot less intimidating and effective). There's something pretty interesting, at least in my mind, about the concept of cloned humanoids bred simply for one purpose and one purpose only, and that's to fight and/or die in battle to achieve a political goal, against a the equally unsettling Battle Droids that could infiltrate a world by the millions with overwhelming presence of simple numbers that are programmed to simply shoot and kill, with no negotiating capabilities. Wouldn't it be terrifying on some level to think of a force of droids that would invade your world in all shapes and sizes and varying abilities of destruction? I think there's a kind of War of the Worlds vibe to the Trade Federation droids in battle, which wouldn't seem like a stretch considering Lucas was probably in all likelihood influenced by H.G Wells, as was probably most of his contemporaries of that particular generation...

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku: If they take out Dooku, they can end the intergalactic war much sooner. Huge weight in that battle. Emotional impact? How about the fact Obi-Wan and Anakin were almost killed? From a completely objective standpoint, that duel carries the same weight as the Bespin duel; if you didn't know anything about the original films, you wouldn't be sure if either one of them were going to survive.

Yoda vs. Dooku: Again, Yoda's trying to put an earlier end to the war, but up until this scene, Yoda had been seen as this diminutive, wizened old Jedi Master that simply sat in the temple and offered sage advice and served on the Jedi Council. We now see him as a very capable and skilled swordsman as well.


Episode III:

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku (Part II): Obi-Wan was, yet again, almost killed, and Anakin killed Count Dooku in a particularly unsettling fashion, which was also, by the way, in contradiction to Jedi teachings. Another step closer to the Dark Side. Much weight and emotional consequence there...

Obi-Wan vs. General Grievous: No real emotional impact, but in terms of the story, yes, there's a lot hanging in the balance. Obi-Wan will not only again bring a quicker end to the war by killing Grievous, but he will also be bringing an end to an avowed Jedi hunter/killer droid. That's pretty creepy, a concept that was much better realized in the original Clone Wars cartoon, but creepy in it's own right nonetheless.

Mace Windu/Saesee Tinn/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto vs. Palpatine: The Chancellor, who's secretly a Sith Lord, takes on four seasoned Jedi Masters, at the same time no less, and kills three of them single-handedly right away with ease while they're trying to arrest him and prevent him from ushering in a new era of darkness and oppression in the galaxy. And this battle...carries no weight and any emotional consequence, even considering the fact that it's the open door that finally pushes Anakin over the edge towards the Dark Side? Again...really?

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar: I don't think I even need to comment on this one.

Yoda vs. Palpatine: Palpatine is a Sith Lord that has set himself up as Emperor of the known galaxy. That's a problem. He needed to be stopped. Alot of weight, huge emotional consequence, considering Yoda's failure to stop him meant the Sith had temporarily won and the galaxy was doomed to years of darkness and oppression.


At the end of the day, it's always gonna boil down to someone's opinion; if someone's not pleased with something, they're gonna find the faults and the negative side of things. If someone likes something and thinks it's cool, they're gonna offer up a defense as to why they feel the way they do and why it's cool to them.

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:54 AM

View PostDevilbat, on 02 April 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

If someone likes something and thinks it's cool, they're gonna offer up a defense as to why they feel the way they do and why it's cool to them.


that's the problem: Id wager 95% of SW fans (or fans of any nerd genre) cant offer up good reasoning when posed with a challenge of their love and stick with what I call the "Apple Jacks" defense...

"Then why do you like it?"

"WE JUST DO!"

And the "we" being strength in numbers to stifle and silence all dissent.


Im all for discussing the merit of "entertainment" on all levels. It's completely subjective, but one still needs to be able to form cohesive thoughts.

I appreciate your attempt, but I still disagree with your prequel reasoning. And in any case, I don't know how you expect any intelligent refutes with tags like "really?" and "again...really?" littered throughout with heavy sarcasm. This already shows that you don't care to listen.

Talking to a wall, but here goes...

No matter what your opinion is concerning the use of a gimmick such as the lightsaber, my point was it's the exact same basic concept visually and in terms of type of on-screen fighting with some type of weapon. - Clarify next time.

By the way, when the Jedi and/or Sith are twirling their lightsabers, it's a combination of intimidation and, I personally think, in some cases, arrogance; sure, they're showing-off. You don't think all of the samurai swordmasters over the centuries didn't use intimidating vocalizations and dramatic moves to make an impression on their enemies? It's a historical fact. - But, Jedi arent supposed to show off, right, George? He's back and forth on that kinda stuff. You meant to talk about Samuarai style fighting instead of medieval combat? Again, clarify next time.

And feat...you can't tell me that stiff, boring duel between poor old Alec Guinness and David Prowse exhibited ANY kind of fluid or believable choreography and practical swordplay, whether you're talking about fencing or broadsword-fighting. - That's subjective. "Stiff?" Sure. They are old warriors after all. "Boring?" even if the prequels werent a mess, this duel shows much more under the surface with the concept. It didnt need to be a 45 minute spectacle to show that there is a history between the two. That is what it is about, the swordplay is window dressing.

Thankfully Lucas realized somewhere along the way that the swordplay choreography had to improve and become more dramatic, and that the lightsabers weren't some unwieldly weapon that required both hands, as he has alluded to initially conceptualizing them as in original interviews. - "Dramatic" swordplay? Again, subjective...and I would say missing the point. The duels that are the most effective are tools to showing things about or things between characters without words. Demonstrative of Lucas' hypocritical stance on special effects vs story.

Qui-Gon Jinn/Obi-Wan on the Trade Federation ship/escape from Naboo: Hey, there's no emotional weight or consequences. These scenes just show how bad-ass the Jedi are. It's cool. What's wrong with having something in a science-fiction/fantasy film that's *gasp* simply cool? - Bad-ass? Big subjective there. Again, confusion with how Lucas has wanted to portray Jedi over the years. Either they should have distinct characteristics and flaws (Obi-wan, at least as a Padawan and in ANH, real trilogy Yoda) or emotionless weirdos (Jinn, Windu, and the rest)

Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul on Tatooine: Darth Maul's sudden and mysterious surprise attack heralded the re-emergence of the Sith Order in the galaxy, an ominous presence and threat not seen in ages, yet all of a sudden, here's evidence of a dangerous Dark Side warrior that could threaten peace and freedom in the galaxy. I'd say that's pretty weighty, if you ask me.
- The script to Phantom Menace is so mindboggling cluttered, its hard to say what's important to the Jedi. The council could, should have, sent a ton of Jedi out to investigate the 2 Sith out there. There is no sense of urgency here. Instead, we're strung along with Palapatine's horrible plan that only works out because the Jedi/Senate are ##$%$#s.

Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul in the Theed Palace: Again, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are faced with stopping a seemingly vicious, determined, and well-trained Sith warrior that seems bent on re-establishing the Sith Order and assassinating key political figures in the senate. Again, that's pretty weighty with some huge consequences for the galaxy. - Plot unclear...send more Jedi?


On to Episode II...

Anakin vs. the Tusken Raiders: We don't really see a lot of this fight/slaughter, but it implies that Anakin has no problem wiping-out whole tribes of people/creatures if he justifies it in his own mind. The fact that there's a Jedi that's so powerful in the Force that has no problem wiping out entire groups of men, women, and children doesn't carry emotional weight and have real consequences? Really? - Not a lightsaber duel, but fairly meaningful to the character.

Multiple Jedi/Clone Troopers vs. Battle Droids/Geonosians: This battle is the flashpoint for the Republic waging war to stop the threat of the evil separatists throughout the galaxy. Intergalactic war is pretty weighty in my book. Now whether you extract any kind of emotional impact from this, you probably won't. I will concede on the point that it's hard to get emotional about thousands (millions) of faceless clones that aren't viewed as individuals that don't have some personal stake in the fight (the Clone Wars show did a better job of that) fighting even more millions of soulless automated droids that are simply carrying out the programming of their masters, but c'mon...isn't it just a little cool to think about there being these weird clones that are fighting what amounts to the Star Wars Universe's equivalence of Terminators (albeit a lot less intimidating and effective). There's something pretty interesting, at least in my mind, about the concept of cloned humanoids bred simply for one purpose and one purpose only, and that's to fight and/or die in battle to achieve a political goal, against a the equally unsettling Battle Droids that could infiltrate a world by the millions with overwhelming presence of simple numbers that are programmed to simply shoot and kill, with no negotiating capabilities. Wouldn't it be terrifying on some level to think of a force of droids that would invade your world in all shapes and sizes and varying abilities of destruction? I think there's a kind of War of the Worlds vibe to the Trade Federation droids in battle, which wouldn't seem like a stretch considering Lucas was probably in all likelihood influenced by H.G Wells, as was probably most of his contemporaries of that particular generation... - Again, confusing and cluttered plot. I get it...the robots were built because George was grasping at the small thread of "clone wars" from his original throwaway line and that was the best he could do to justify a clone army. Plus, he found a convoluted way to work Boba Fett in there. Bugs...not sure about them...looked cool, easily dispensable? "The Jedi cut thru them like butter" - bugs and bots are just a poor excuse for lightsaber fodder.

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku: If they take out Dooku, they can end the intergalactic war much sooner. Huge weight in that battle. Emotional impact? How about the fact Obi-Wan and Anakin were almost killed? From a completely objective standpoint, that duel carries the same weight as the Bespin duel; if you didn't know anything about the original films, you wouldn't be sure if either one of them were going to survive.

Yoda vs. Dooku: Again, Yoda's trying to put an earlier end to the war, but up until this scene, Yoda had been seen as this diminutive, wizened old Jedi Master that simply sat in the temple and offered sage advice and served on the Jedi Council. We now see him as a very capable and skilled swordsman as well. - Yoda should never need/should never have a lightsaber. It hurts all his teachings to luke in the originals about size, weapons, and warriors.


Episode III:

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku (Part II): Obi-Wan was, yet again, almost killed, and Anakin killed Count Dooku in a particularly unsettling fashion, which was also, by the way, in contradiction to Jedi teachings. Another step closer to the Dark Side. Much weight and emotional consequence there... - You left out the unnecessary part where Dooku comes into the room and does like a 5 somersault flip down the staircase. And the part were the nonthreatening Superbattledroids were easily dispatched.

Obi-Wan vs. General Grievous: No real emotional impact, but in terms of the story, yes, there's a lot hanging in the balance. Obi-Wan will not only again bring a quicker end to the war by killing Grievous, but he will also be bringing an end to an avowed Jedi hunter/killer droid. That's pretty creepy, a concept that was much better realized in the original Clone Wars cartoon, but creepy in it's own right nonetheless. - This character is unnecessary, but George willed it so. Im sure there was some point about a multiarmed lightsaber beast being easily dispatched by a good blaster at you side, but all the mess that came before makes it unclear.

Mace Windu/Saesee Tinn/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto vs. Palpatine: The Chancellor, who's secretly a Sith Lord, takes on four seasoned Jedi Masters, at the same time no less, and kills three of them single-handedly right away with ease while they're trying to arrest him and prevent him from ushering in a new era of darkness and oppression in the galaxy. And this battle...carries no weight and any emotional consequence, even considering the fact that it's the open door that finally pushes Anakin over the edge towards the Dark Side? Again...really? - So, Windouche finally gets off his ass and does something too little too late. All that "thinking" and "meditating" on the problem...if they key to this scene was to should how greatly flawed the Jedi religion is, it succeeds. At least, Palpatine is a genuinely entertaining here.

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar: I don't think I even need to comment on this one. - I do. This duel did not need to be 30 minuts long. Subjective, yes, but this is boring. What mattered the most is the final 2 minutes on the "high ground." The rest is mindless fluff.

Yoda vs. Palpatine: Palpatine is a Sith Lord that has set himself up as Emperor of the known galaxy. That's a problem. He needed to be stopped. Alot of weight, huge emotional consequence, considering Yoda's failure to stop him meant the Sith had temporarily won and the galaxy was doomed to years of darkness and oppression. - This is entertaining only because the Emperor is the only character allowed to have a genuine personality in these films. He's having fun, and we're haveing fun along with him. And Yoda gets what he deserves for being a tard and having a string of failures under his belt.

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:18 AM

The difference between a legion of knights with broadswords and a legion of Jedi with lightsabers? The Lightsabers look far more visually dynamic on-screen. They give the series an iconic weapon that is now immediately recognizable to most of the civilized world. They help give the setting a flash and style all its' own, and I would gladly argue that without them, the series would be considerably less popular.

Sometimes it really is "entertainment" that's key. The fight choreography in ESB and RotJ was fine for its' day. If they'd kept that level of swordplay in the prequels, most audiences would have been highly disappointed, because on-screen action had evolved in the intervening decades, largely based on greater influence from far eastern cinema starting to creep into Western awareness. It would have seemed stale and boring, regardless of the performances surrounding it, and even films like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and The Matrix and its sequels would have blown it away in terms of action.

Star Wars films are at their heart supposed to be action/adventure tales in a science-fantasy setting, not weighty dramas. While there were plenty of performances in the prequels that were bad-bordering-on-atrocious, most people would tend to think that the more dynamic fight choreography went far more towards salvaging the films than further sullying them.

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM

View PostJmacq1, on 02 April 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

fight choreography went far more towards salvaging the films than further sullying them.



Dynamic would not be the word I would use. It would agree if you said they were the only memorable images from these movies, sure.

It's still fluff. Plain and simple. And this fluff of this kind will, Im sure, carry over into the new movies theyre making. A good majority of filmgoers do enjoy bright colors and fast images and nothing else. But they can have meaning behind them and please across the board...if the script is strong enough. The same goes for space battles. Strong foundation, grounded in truth. It's worked/happened before.



Sparing another analysis of prequel failings, this:
Posted Image
is still more captivating and impressive than any SW fight...ever...I would like to see this level of swordplay in a SW movie.

You all do know what movie that still is from without me saying, right? If not, and you haven't seen it, you've got no business talking about movie sword fights.

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:47 PM

Quote

Im all for discussing the merit of "entertainment" on all levels. It's completely subjective, but one still needs to be able to form cohesive thoughts.

I appreciate your attempt, but I still disagree with your prequel reasoning. And in any case, I don't know how you expect any intelligent refutes with tags like "really?" and "again...really?" littered throughout with heavy sarcasm. This already shows that you don't care to listen.


Hello, Mr. Kettle. My name is Mr. Pot. Nice to meet you. (lol)

I went and did it. I said I wouldn't do it, but I let my temper get the best of me, and instead of ignoring your typical negative comments feat, I just had to go and pop-off. Maybe it was a combination of things; I was tired and grouchy last night, and I had had an extremely stressful day at work. I'm just now coming down off of an illness, and I've recently been receiving physical therapy after work that's been aggravating some old car accident injuries. Those are not excuses for instigating an argument, mind you, and I'm certainly not looking for any sympathy, but I thought I'd explain the place I was in yesterday and where I was coming from.

I do want to respond to your comments, but I think I'm in a more reasonable and respectful mood to do so this evening:

Talking to a wall, but here goes...

Now feat...we don't always agree, but you've got to admit that we do enough for you to acknowledge the fact that I'm pretty open-minded and objective enough to accept some criticisms aimed at the prequels and everything that has followed. If you're honest with yourself, surely you don't consider me a "wall" when it comes to discussion. It disappoints me that you would say that, but after all, I was being a sarcastic butt-head last night, in your defense.

No matter what your opinion is concerning the use of a gimmick such as the lightsaber, my point was it's the exact same basic concept visually and in terms of type of on-screen fighting with some type of weapon. - Clarify next time.

Well, I thought my question posed to you was pretty clear, but perhaps it wasn't. Next time (if there is one, that is), I will indeed clarify.

By the way, when the Jedi and/or Sith are twirling their lightsabers, it's a combination of intimidation and, I personally think, in some cases, arrogance; sure, they're showing-off. You don't think all of the samurai swordmasters over the centuries didn't use intimidating vocalizations and dramatic moves to make an impression on their enemies? It's a historical fact. - But, Jedi arent supposed to show off, right, George? He's back and forth on that kinda stuff. You meant to talk about Samuarai style fighting instead of medieval combat? Again, clarify next time.

Well, the Jedi weren't supposed to be emotional and prone to such trappings such as fear, pride, or feelings of love, etc. But Yoda admits in Episode II that Jedi were increasingly becoming just that...prone to frailties that contradicted the Jedi precepts. And when I mentioned samurai in a conversation that began with medieval knights, I was just interjecting an equally historical example of warriors and their respective fighting styles that in turn inspired George Lucas's Jedi Knights; they're called knights, but they look and fight like samurai. Again, I will try to be more precise next time.

And feat...you can't tell me that stiff, boring duel between poor old Alec Guinness and David Prowse exhibited ANY kind of fluid or believable choreography and practical swordplay, whether you're talking about fencing or broadsword-fighting. - That's subjective. "Stiff?" Sure. They are old warriors after all. "Boring?" even if the prequels werent a mess, this duel shows much more under the surface with the concept. It didnt need to be a 45 minute spectacle to show that there is a history between the two. That is what it is about, the swordplay is window dressing.

Yes, I will agree that the brief comments and barbs they aim at each other in this scene set the tone for a backstory that we perhaps wanted to know more about, and it does lend some weight to the mystery as to what their history together really was. But c'mon...you have to admit the actual physical fighting was stiff and unchoreographed. It's not as dramatic or believable if the actors and/or stuntmen don't appear to be trained or have any skill whatsoever in the type of fighting they're trying to portray on-screen. It disintegrates the illusion the film-makers are trying to perpetuate. You can see the huge difference in Empire when Lucas decided to employ an actual swordsman to portray a skilled and deft Vader that dispatched Luke quite easily and almost effortlessly. If you want to offer up the argument that Alec Guinness was a classically-trained actor with some background in fencing, it still doesn't hold up; I never saw any type of fencing that required the sword to be held with both hands, and in such a stiff manner.

Thankfully Lucas realized somewhere along the way that the swordplay choreography had to improve and become more dramatic, and that the lightsabers weren't some unwieldly weapon that required both hands, as he has alluded to initially conceptualizing them as in original interviews. - "Dramatic" swordplay? Again, subjective...and I would say missing the point. The duels that are the most effective are tools to showing things about or things between characters without words. Demonstrative of Lucas' hypocritical stance on special effects vs story.

Yes...Lucas talks out of both sides of his mouth sometimes. I will concede on that point. And yes, it is all subjective.

Qui-Gon Jinn/Obi-Wan on the Trade Federation ship/escape from Naboo: Hey, there's no emotional weight or consequences. These scenes just show how bad-ass the Jedi are. It's cool. What's wrong with having something in a science-fiction/fantasy film that's *gasp* simply cool? - Bad-ass? Big subjective there. Again, confusion with how Lucas has wanted to portray Jedi over the years. Either they should have distinct characteristics and flaws (Obi-wan, at least as a Padawan and in ANH, real trilogy Yoda) or emotionless weirdos (Jinn, Windu, and the rest)

I think for centuries, the Jedi were near-perfect beings, when they were at their best and truly in-tune with the Force. But, as time went on, and as Yoda alluded to in AOTC, they began to believe their own hype, as it were, and developed flaws and cracks in the system, if you will.

Qui-Gon vs. Darth Maul on Tatooine: Darth Maul's sudden and mysterious surprise attack heralded the re-emergence of the Sith Order in the galaxy, an ominous presence and threat not seen in ages, yet all of a sudden, here's evidence of a dangerous Dark Side warrior that could threaten peace and freedom in the galaxy. I'd say that's pretty weighty, if you ask me.
- The script to Phantom Menace is so mindboggling cluttered, its hard to say what's important to the Jedi. The council could, should have, sent a ton of Jedi out to investigate the 2 Sith out there. There is no sense of urgency here. Instead, we're strung along with Palapatine's horrible plan that only works out because the Jedi/Senate are ##$%$#s.


Again, I think this may illustrate, however accidentally, that the Jedi weren't necessarily on top of their game, and the re-emergence of the Sith and how to handle it, or the mishandling of it ultimately, signaled the diminishing of their use of the Force Mace Windu spoke of and the impending downfall of the Jedi Order.

Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul in the Theed Palace: Again, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are faced with stopping a seemingly vicious, determined, and well-trained Sith warrior that seems bent on re-establishing the Sith Order and assassinating key political figures in the senate. Again, that's pretty weighty with some huge consequences for the galaxy. - Plot unclear...send more Jedi?


I think this can be summed-up with Qui-Gon's arrogance: "We'll handle this." Oh, you will, will you? Well then, whose frontin' like a boss over here now? (lol) We know how that turned out...

Anakin vs. the Tusken Raiders: We don't really see a lot of this fight/slaughter, but it implies that Anakin has no problem wiping-out whole tribes of people/creatures if he justifies it in his own mind. The fact that there's a Jedi that's so powerful in the Force that has no problem wiping out entire groups of men, women, and children doesn't carry emotional weight and have real consequences? Really? - Not a lightsaber duel, but fairly meaningful to the character.

Thank you for acknowledging the validity of my point feat. That really does mean something coming from you, and I'm not being sarcastic or facetious when I say that, seriously.

Multiple Jedi/Clone Troopers vs. Battle Droids/Geonosians: This battle is the flashpoint for the Republic waging war to stop the threat of the evil separatists throughout the galaxy. Intergalactic war is pretty weighty in my book. Now whether you extract any kind of emotional impact from this, you probably won't. I will concede on the point that it's hard to get emotional about thousands (millions) of faceless clones that aren't viewed as individuals that don't have some personal stake in the fight (the Clone Wars show did a better job of that) fighting even more millions of soulless automated droids that are simply carrying out the programming of their masters, but c'mon...isn't it just a little cool to think about there being these weird clones that are fighting what amounts to the Star Wars Universe's equivalence of Terminators (albeit a lot less intimidating and effective). There's something pretty interesting, at least in my mind, about the concept of cloned humanoids bred simply for one purpose and one purpose only, and that's to fight and/or die in battle to achieve a political goal, against a the equally unsettling Battle Droids that could infiltrate a world by the millions with overwhelming presence of simple numbers that are programmed to simply shoot and kill, with no negotiating capabilities. Wouldn't it be terrifying on some level to think of a force of droids that would invade your world in all shapes and sizes and varying abilities of destruction? I think there's a kind of War of the Worlds vibe to the Trade Federation droids in battle, which wouldn't seem like a stretch considering Lucas was probably in all likelihood influenced by H.G Wells, as was probably most of his contemporaries of that particular generation... - Again, confusing and cluttered plot. I get it...the robots were built because George was grasping at the small thread of "clone wars" from his original throwaway line and that was the best he could do to justify a clone army. Plus, he found a convoluted way to work Boba Fett in there. Bugs...not sure about them...looked cool, easily dispensable? "The Jedi cut thru them like butter" - bugs and bots are just a poor excuse for lightsaber fodder.

Well, in all seriousness, had you had battalions of Trade Federation humanoids or better yet, Mandalorians dying left and right with hacked-off heads, arms, and legs, then it may have come off as the sci-fi version of Braveheart or something...derivative, disturbing, and R-rated. There are glimpses of such violence of course, but I guess there could only be so much of it.

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku: If they take out Dooku, they can end the intergalactic war much sooner. Huge weight in that battle. Emotional impact? How about the fact Obi-Wan and Anakin were almost killed? From a completely objective standpoint, that duel carries the same weight as the Bespin duel; if you didn't know anything about the original films, you wouldn't be sure if either one of them were going to survive.

Yoda vs. Dooku: Again, Yoda's trying to put an earlier end to the war, but up until this scene, Yoda had been seen as this diminutive, wizened old Jedi Master that simply sat in the temple and offered sage advice and served on the Jedi Council. We now see him as a very capable and skilled swordsman as well. - Yoda should never need/should never have a lightsaber. It hurts all his teachings to luke in the originals about size, weapons, and warriors.


I'm really torn on this one...I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Yoda bust out a lightsaber, initially...one would think if someone had been a Jedi Master for hundreds of years, it would be a given that they were a master swordsman too. But, as you alluded to feat, Yoda beautifully embodied the passive and defensive yet powerful nature of the Force in Empire. To undo all of that just to see a digital green whirlwind seems like a sell-out, but there's still part of me that liked it and thought it was interesting.

Anakin/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku (Part II): Obi-Wan was, yet again, almost killed, and Anakin killed Count Dooku in a particularly unsettling fashion, which was also, by the way, in contradiction to Jedi teachings. Another step closer to the Dark Side. Much weight and emotional consequence there... - You left out the unnecessary part where Dooku comes into the room and does like a 5 somersault flip down the staircase. And the part were the nonthreatening Superbattledroids were easily dispatched.

I didn't mind the super battle droids being taken out so easily...it just showcased Obi-Wan's skill as a Jedi. But I will admit I hated Dooku's unnecessary CGI flip off that balcony. I would have preferred a creepy and intimidating yet slow float down, like he did in the gladiator arena in the original animated Clone Wars cartoon short where he confronts Asajj Ventriss the first time. Sometimes less is more.

Obi-Wan vs. General Grievous: No real emotional impact, but in terms of the story, yes, there's a lot hanging in the balance. Obi-Wan will not only again bring a quicker end to the war by killing Grievous, but he will also be bringing an end to an avowed Jedi hunter/killer droid. That's pretty creepy, a concept that was much better realized in the original Clone Wars cartoon, but creepy in it's own right nonetheless. - This character is unnecessary, but George willed it so. Im sure there was some point about a multiarmed lightsaber beast being easily dispatched by a good blaster at you side, but all the mess that came before makes it unclear.

I think had he been portrayed like he was in the original Clone Wars animated series, he would have been a more classic character. Cool idea, not so ideally executed maybe.

Mace Windu/Saesee Tinn/Agen Kolar/Kit Fisto vs. Palpatine: The Chancellor, who's secretly a Sith Lord, takes on four seasoned Jedi Masters, at the same time no less, and kills three of them single-handedly right away with ease while they're trying to arrest him and prevent him from ushering in a new era of darkness and oppression in the galaxy. And this battle...carries no weight and any emotional consequence, even considering the fact that it's the open door that finally pushes Anakin over the edge towards the Dark Side? Again...really? - So, Windouche finally gets off his ass and does something too little too late. All that "thinking" and "meditating" on the problem...if they key to this scene was to should how greatly flawed the Jedi religion is, it succeeds. At least, Palpatine is a genuinely entertaining here.

I think you're exactly right here, feat; Mace Windu and co. were getting proactive a little too late in the game, but it was one of my favorite scenes in the prequels...I loved the whole process of revealing the true Palpatine in Episode III. It was the one true stroke of brilliance in the whole trilogy. I especially love watching him completely revealing his true nature in the scene where he "re-christens" Anakin as Darth Vader. I'm mesmerized by that scene every time.

Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar: I don't think I even need to comment on this one. - I do. This duel did not need to be 30 minuts long. Subjective, yes, but this is boring. What mattered the most is the final 2 minutes on the "high ground." The rest is mindless fluff.

I have to simply disagree...I had visions of what that duel was like for some twenty-plus years leading up to Episode III, and it was about as striking as I had imagined.

Yoda vs. Palpatine: Palpatine is a Sith Lord that has set himself up as Emperor of the known galaxy. That's a problem. He needed to be stopped. Alot of weight, huge emotional consequence, considering Yoda's failure to stop him meant the Sith had temporarily won and the galaxy was doomed to years of darkness and oppression. - This is entertaining only because the Emperor is the only character allowed to have a genuine personality in these films. He's having fun, and we're haveing fun along with him. And Yoda gets what he deserves for being a tard and having a string of failures under his belt.

You may be right, except for Yoda being a "tard". I think the fact that Palpatine/Sidious clouded the Jedi's vision and hid his true identity and ambitions just proved how frighteningly powerful he was, to dupe the entire galaxy, including Yoda and his "perfect" Jedi Council.

By the way...you say Yoda had a "string of failures under his belt". Please clarify, to use your own words against you. @smilepunch@


Feat, I truly think you and I may agree more than you might think, and yes, I may have been a little snarky and grouchy when I responded to you. I apologize if I may have come across as defensive, sarcastic, or incitant. But feat...it seems like every single time there's a snippet of news concerning Episode VII or Star Wars: Rebels, or any Star Wars news for that matter, you're usually the first to comment, and it's almost always negative and/or dismissive. I guess it just struck me wrong, and I wanted to run my mouth. You have just as much right to grumble and complain about things as the rest of us do to gush and fawn over all of the new developments. I broke my cardinal rule of ignoring negativity, but more importantly, I was a grumpy smart-@$$, and I like to pride myself in being courteous, respectful, and able to engage in meaningful and thoughtful discussions, no matter the subject or with whom I'm debating with. So for that, again I apologize, although I still don't agree with you 100%, and I feel like you are too negative sometimes. Like you say though feat, it's all subjective.

#12 User is offline   Jmacq1 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 06:22 AM

View Postfeatofstrength, on 02 April 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

View PostJmacq1, on 02 April 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

fight choreography went far more towards salvaging the films than further sullying them.



Dynamic would not be the word I would use. It would agree if you said they were the only memorable images from these movies, sure.

It's still fluff. Plain and simple. And this fluff of this kind will, Im sure, carry over into the new movies theyre making. A good majority of filmgoers do enjoy bright colors and fast images and nothing else. But they can have meaning behind them and please across the board...if the script is strong enough. The same goes for space battles. Strong foundation, grounded in truth. It's worked/happened before.



Sparing another analysis of prequel failings, this:
Posted Image
is still more captivating and impressive than any SW fight...ever...I would like to see this level of swordplay in a SW movie.

You all do know what movie that still is from without me saying, right? If not, and you haven't seen it, you've got no business talking about movie sword fights.


I do know which movie it is. Whether I did or not, however, is irrelevant to my ability to have an opinion on movie sword fights. Personally my preference leans slightly more towards Scaramouche (1952) anyway.

You don't like the prequel swordfights. That's fine. Plenty of other people do, and quite a bit. That's fine too. This seems to be something you have difficulty accepting.

This isn't in any way a defense of the Prequel scripts. They were generally terrible, then again so were the OT scripts, people just didn't care because they had charismatic performers selling the lines convincingly.

Scripts and fight choreography, though, aren't really the same thing.

#13 User is offline   featofstrength 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:19 AM

View PostJmacq1, on 03 April 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

Scripts and fight choreography, though, aren't really the same thing.


But they can be...one should drive the other. Either you write a movie with swordplay being the focus, or you write a movie with swordplay as a tool to tell a story. The latter needs to feel like a natural, not forced, integration. Again, unless its grunts fighting grunts for a greater established cause, I want to feel a bit more weight behind fights between focal characters. "Good guys vs bad guys" is usually about as much as we get...and nowadays we're told more often than shown as faults of lazy or poor writing.

#14 User is offline   featofstrength 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:56 AM

View PostDevilbat, on 02 April 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

So for that, again I apologize, although I still don't agree with you 100%, and I feel like you are too negative sometimes. Like you say though feat, it's all subjective.


No problem. I was kinda taken back by your post, as it didn't sound like the usual you. Everybody has their bad days. My negative attitude towards "entertainment" continues from one very long, bad day. I used to work in theatre up to 2008, when the economy took a dive and took me with it. Since then, I expect a lot more from Hollywood, Broadway, books, and anything under the guise of "entertainment." I mean, if people out there can still blow 100 million + on a movie and expect the little guys to spend hard earned money on it, the bar should be pretty high for everyone, not just myself. I know I rub people in here the wrong way about it, and its not my original intent to make things personal...The average joe deserves better than what they crank out most of the time. I always hope they can see when they're settling for less. Again, subjective stuff, but it never hurts to question and discuss.

People will have a good breather from me as far as Star Wars goes. Ive promised myself to never give that franchise another red cent (I'll make an exception if Hasbro makes a Tantive IV and large scale Jawa Sandcrawler). So, If I do have an opinion on the new films once they're out, you'll know ive gone pirate. #US1#

#15 User is offline   JoeRhyno 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:11 AM

What if they make a Tantive IV that TRANSFORMS into a Sandcrawler...







Of course also transforming into a Jedi with a lightsaber... Posted Image




#16 User is offline   featofstrength 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:45 AM

View PostJoeRhyno, on 03 April 2014 - 09:11 AM, said:

What if they make a Tantive IV that TRANSFORMS into a Sandcrawler...

Of course also transforming into a Jedi with a lightsaber... Posted Image


I couldnt get into the SW Transformers for one reason alone: I wanted the SW vehicles to change into Transformers characters, not weird Robo-ized SW characters. Like, say, Optimus Prime changes into the Millenium Falcon with a Han Solo minifigure to ride along, Megatron into Star Destroyer with lil Darth Vader, Unicron Death Star with lil Moff Tarkin, etc. A true crossover.

#17 User is offline   JoeRhyno 

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:39 PM

Same reason why we never got any of those too.

#18 User is offline   Devilbat 

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:07 PM

View Postfeatofstrength, on 03 April 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

View PostDevilbat, on 02 April 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

So for that, again I apologize, although I still don't agree with you 100%, and I feel like you are too negative sometimes. Like you say though feat, it's all subjective.


No problem. I was kinda taken back by your post, as it didn't sound like the usual you. Everybody has their bad days. My negative attitude towards "entertainment" continues from one very long, bad day. I used to work in theatre up to 2008, when the economy took a dive and took me with it. Since then, I expect a lot more from Hollywood, Broadway, books, and anything under the guise of "entertainment." I mean, if people out there can still blow 100 million + on a movie and expect the little guys to spend hard earned money on it, the bar should be pretty high for everyone, not just myself. I know I rub people in here the wrong way about it, and its not my original intent to make things personal...The average joe deserves better than what they crank out most of the time. I always hope they can see when they're settling for less. Again, subjective stuff, but it never hurts to question and discuss.

People will have a good breather from me as far as Star Wars goes. Ive promised myself to never give that franchise another red cent (I'll make an exception if Hasbro makes a Tantive IV and large scale Jawa Sandcrawler). So, If I do have an opinion on the new films once they're out, you'll know ive gone pirate. #US1#


Ahh...now the pessimism makes much more sense. (lol) Glad we could clear the air, as it were. I probably should have higher standards when it comes to films, but I guess I'm a sucker for anything Star Wars-related...usually. I do balk at some of the over-extensions the franchise (Geeze I hate that word!!) has endured over the past nearly couple of decades at times, but more often than not nostalgia and sentimentality get the best of me, and the prequels have been cool to me mainly by association I guess more than anything, and that doesn't always make for a discerning viewer, I suppose.

But I'm glad we're good...there's way too much stress and conflict in my real life for me to come on here and create even more with my pop-culture brethren.

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